hi blog talking about it first of all
thank you so much for coming along
because it is quite flattering to like
nearly fellow room and this is the
second time we've done this panel and we
really appreciate you guys so long
listen to us listen just bubble in case
yeah in case you miss the first
introduction could can college us
yourselves I'm Dan Don tweets on Twitter
please for me sure I'm Jack and I'm not
gonna some James I hope to be tea and it
was okay so the reason we did this
funnel that's obviously are the do's and
don'ts of getting Indian Cossack because
there's a lot of information I dare
apply getting a job and talents to the
questions that people have when they
start to go into an industry but a lot
of it does come from different sources
which also you have different ideas
about it and because M for second
industry is so dynamic there doesn't
really seem to be one truth to change
like getting a job and it seems to be
different for different people so what
we've discovered and are written like
when we discuss this originally was it
are Richard we're very different and the
the advice wasn't quite universal so um
and such a dynamic industry we realized
that because we've just been for the
process ourselves for context if you're
on there where all of us were juniors
did it haven't been in the industry that
long so um where we essentially asked
everyone a question or we asked police
Twitter followers a question the to tell
us will what are they wondering most
about the industry because we understand
that it's different for everyone and the
Trinity is no yellow brick road as to
how you get a job so we're gonna go
through three categories of questions we
received we sent over Twitter and
LinkedIn
I'm Leon you know quite a few responses
we got a healthy response about it but
there's the book the questions mainly
with the exception of 50 trolls online
followed the three separate categories
so there's try to develop your Barker
and then informations
maybe you're currently maybe you're
currently like in university now and
you're looking to develop your
background so that you can become
employable or potentially you're
currently going through the application
process which varies from company to
company and there's no clear answer on
on anything to do that really
and then once you've got the job once
you've secured that in your position
there's a lot of questions about like
like working life and like what how you
keep up skilling and how to keep
developing your career once you're
actually in the job so I think just a
essentially before before the job so how
did you guys get in the industry
starting guitar
sure so I studied here Alberti used to
attend in security and setting in talks
like this the deathblow hacking degree
he finished that up um pretty much it
pretty linear from a degree to a job -
completely different I did a year of
college dropped out didn't really want
to go to uni so I ended up going to a
friendship new software Hama instead
that company collapse was made redundant
and luckily I was able to get another
event ship which is my mom general IT
and eventually while I was there over
the course of a year or so it change
into more governance like policy kind of
stuff not too technical and that evolved
into a more technical role and now I do
more security operations mire and stuff
like that and that's how it kind of got
to where I am now
yeah I kind of did everything a bit
backwards I like him went to college
hated it got any of the media studies
but I did nothing with and then I was
working full-time in a bar and you learn
after being full-time in a bar for
awhile that being full-time to borrow
some great fun so I routed from
Cambridgeshire and moved up to Leeds
where I did a foundation degree and then
well after a year sucked off and moved
over to Beckett where I'm currently
doing forensics and security yeah so I
guess I'm not somebody to eject here so
very conventional so do University had
an internship came out of university and
played for tons of
jobs I got a great job with Beauty
security and that's kind of where I am
these days and it just reference about
what do you work at night what's your
actual role so I work as a secure
patient center analyst so that's things
like monitoring alerts triaging the
fixing things
Craig projects for generally fixing
technical security issues that's
anything from vulnerabilities to
completely redesigning things and
building them an implement in them
things like that okay so getting into
the questions you're safe the first one
is what are some things that you did
stand out I think this one refers to
kind of a like very much before being in
the building in the workplaces I don't
have any things to share but um
yes there's a whole ton of different
things you can do to make yourself stand
out as a candidate because employers are
gonna get more than was about controller
jobs so you need to do things outside of
just studying to make yourself stand out
an employer and sure that you care and
you're a bit more passionate rather than
just doing a degree in getting a job for
the sake of it
so there's a whole lot of different
things you can do you can do like
relevant volunteering experience
part-time work that's relevant
internships you can apply to conferences
to speak which is really really valuable
or even just comment as an attendee
because when you come here you're
spending money to come even if it's only
20 quid for a ticket but that just shows
that you care past just doing a degree
it takes up an entire Friday as well
always asking yeah with that in mind
it's also with using that time as an
opportunity to figure out what you want
to do so having all that spare time and
figuring I really like writing articles
I really like public speaking so I
really like doing podcasts and then
that's not the to news then to take that
further either when you have a job or go
for it okay and I think because the
question is more in respect to what you
actually learn what you feel like
yourself did because I mean with
reservation Isis to do yourself right so
how you do in your experience so I did a
few public speaking engagements
primarily at the Hocking society we have
at university it's a really good way to
get to public speaking because it's very
welcomed and very supportive
passed out I support car b-sides Libby
Ana last year which actually resulted in
a job offer an offer on the spot as soon
as the top finished I was offered an
internship part-time with the Scotch
business resilience centre it was a
really great opportunity it was an
introduction to pain tests in working
with clients writing reports and they
were really flexible because they
understand that you're a student and
you're trying to do this job at the same
time so there's a lot of different
things you can do just for the sake of
getting through the question so it like
as a summary just like attending
extracurricular I like activities
conferences just like networking with
people that's with the stuff I didn't
know if you're at the societies that you
you know do committee mulch you know I
know with our society being on committee
really helped cuz it make you do things
no I know of course like I said with
that new CEQA and myself era for those
really don't know how I was part of
university and I'm still armed but I
used to be part of the other music are a
security society and like getting
involved in the organization a lot
really did like open doors which just
seemed not to be there before I started
so that's definitely something to
consider if you have one if not
essentially answer so depending on where
your experiences in university
beneficial for securing your first job
yeah I'm gonna start this and everybody
obviously have different opinions but
you know University really is like it's
what you make of the experience you know
sitting in a lecture you know where
someone's going that this is security is
that isn't practical that doesn't get
you the job and and as we've said before
you know it's about what we're doing
around it and university as a bubble is
a really good environment to like
nurture that I think so it's like the
experience of going university I than
the actual nice and I think a lot of it
as well at learning from other people
who are in the same position because
obviously everybody knows different
things and cares about different things
so you're there and you're being exposed
to so much whereas if you are sat in
your bedroom reading a book it's a very
different experience I guess
and and Brent you said at the start you
didn't get you didn't go to university
and it hasn't been it hasn't a barrier
to you in the industry no no my work
that I've done is through meeting people
and experiencing things like you said
but I found that it's been very easy to
do with meetups and conferences and just
talking to people getting involved in
different projects and I've not really
found a barrier that's needed me to be
at university at all I was gonna say I'm
gonna be the flipside of that and so I
find universities super important yeah
because it's that backbone especially if
you don't have that knowledge beforehand
it kind of sets you on that level to
make sure that you have that backbone
you know you're talking about and then
you can pivot off that you go to
conferences you do these meetups
whatever but if I think universities a
great way a solid my dish yeah I can
speak for myself that I wouldn't have
had like with experiences in university
being outside of classes like I
certainly nothing with security before
like going to university and although I
wasn't necessarily studying security I
did saw for engineering it's still like
going to the University like in a
structured learning and like having that
kind of time surrounded by people here
so passion the way it really did kind of
like definitely helped me secure my
first job but I'm from that how did you
make your Browns see I think making a
brand yourself is making your image as a
person like you know I kind of did media
so I was always that very creative
person's like I played on that so when I
tended the security the first year I
made these really low-key business cards
and everybody in the society like that's
hilarious don't do that you're gonna get
mocked but when you're having
conversations with people it's memorable
it's like if you're this person that
someone stood and spoken to you for ten
minutes then you give them something
like you know they'll remember you more
I think so I think I started with that
and obviously you can build like blogs
and I think Twitter presence is
important as well like you can engage
with the community and people can gauge
the kind of person you are from that
yeah so now I can see a few juices from
Twitter in here so it's it's definitely
a very good like networking tool but in
order to like this we've had the tech
off
every day at the air so it's nice deal
to know who's me really and I'm not not
to say that but it's it's very funny
yeah I think I think off that point is
what clothes saying is it's all about
content creation right so if you're
really interested in something means
that someone else is going to be
interested in that same thing so you
have read articles make blog post write
code or that kind of stuff
and it's all about sharing that I think
I've being integrated in that community
yeah I think I think that sharing is
very important because I'd I know a lot
of people who struggle with that kind of
like just like putting stuff either
because there no other that's not good
enough and like one of it's like what if
someone can pack a hole in it but even
if they put a hole no and even if they
say it's bad still better than having
nothing night like it still I mean like
you like you're hardly proving and
confidence or any confidence just
because you've released something which
isn't picture-perfect that's like the
benefit of releasing things and like
getting your name right there and being
introduced to people who like the same
stuff is definitely a ways that kind of
this even if you get stuff wrong and
you'd be corrected don't treat it is you
being wrong because identity you're
still a student treat it as a learning
experience
Tico's constructive criticism rather
than negative criticism and use that to
improve and get better
okay so I'm moving on from that that was
um that was before before any jobs would
not have done applying for a job some
questions regarding applications or
running to be building on certain things
so our first one here is with online
application forms and test Shiggy on to
the questions obviously Oh as an aisle I
believe the company is looking for so I
think I can say that yes you on to
the questions honestly because you
shouldn't apply on an application I
didn't really set up to set up does
anyone have any insights about the type
of questions that we get asked and like
how we should approach answering them
yes I think that this question we did
spend some time about it because the
question was well do you
what is lying in an application actually
mean we said yeah hands down none of us
should lie in applications right we
shouldn't lie about hard skills we
shouldn't lie about students but when it
comes to soft skills I think it is super
important to take that step back and to
go actually what's the company looking
for here how can I move with this
competitor and answering these questions
how'd it be exactly and I think that's
not the sort of lying but it's showing
that you have those skills by taking
them step back
we are our own biggest critic at the end
of the day like like it's it's it's it's
very important to understand like a
jollification so here you like you
aren't going to be selling your services
to this company and so you should like
really think hard about like what makes
your services like worth selling in a
sense unlike and that's not to say that
like some people don't have services on
hard we are all valuable as employees
it's about finding what makes you a
particular value I mean like and there's
it's not a crime to highlight things
which will like what you like about
yourself or the skills you think you
have I got that as well like you can
tell a lot about a company from what
they're asking you so in that process of
applying and writing things down it's
like you know you're thinking well am i
suitable for this thing is this a place
and environment I want to be and you can
normally gauge that through the way but
yeah honestly honesty is absolutely key
among reviews so I be sitting in
interviews and they said how to program
experience how much development have you
done I've been fully honest setting an
interview in front of two people and
said I'm a terrible programmer I'm not
going to pretend that we're good
programmer because if they give me after
knowing the lines of code to do record
review on it's not gonna stand a chance
and so it's better to be honest
companies will accept that don't accept
especially as a junior that you don't
know everything and they will not expect
you to know everything being kind of all
that because although it simple it's not
what you said Tennyson is not one to
sell yourself no I think it's really
easy to kind of understand something
civil actually this actually again
taking a step back and of critical about
vision himself and sin actually I am
pretty good at this these two things
maybe one thing I see is go through
things that I've done in the past and
see what skills and I'm just looking if
I was looking at it from someone else's
perspective and like well let's say if I
look behind see they pretend it's my
friends and then it says oh I develop
this project or I did this thing what
skills do they demonstrate when they say
they've done that and then using those
like the skills which commonly come up
so that's their first if I've done a lot
of programming and then I like I keep
getting okay what skills of money that's
like attention to detail and like
programming experience and so on then I
would like be comfortable using those as
skills and the job application even
though like I'm up
might offer to like consider myself
perfectly go to programming or or I
might like consider myself like like
Bartman area because it keeps coming up
in my previous experience and so on so
it's a good it's a good tool to consider
what experience you have and then see
what skills you can get from that
listens
so moving on how long do you tease if
I'm putting form and is it is a
different depending on their size to
this it varies depending on the size and
it varies depending on the job so when I
applied to my current employer they were
pretty small or it's a pretty quick
application process still did generally
get back to you pretty quicker
conversely I applied to some very very
large enterprises and they got back to
me I think three weeks ago and off a
minute with you and I applied December
are you and a quarter ago so how long it
takes companies to get back to you can
vary and massively depending on the size
and how much you should chase them
depends on how much you want your job so
I was very very keen I'm going to work
my current employer so if I hadn't heard
back I definitely would have chased them
up just to see how your applications
going but with that larger company I
just I applied more for the name rather
than wanting to work for them so I
wasn't particularly fussy about chasing
the I didn't how long would you live
before chasing the company right now if
you hadn't have received a response a
lot of it before maybe a few weeks I
found this research station application
and yeah it also depends how quickly
you're working to get into employment
law so I began the application process
in December of 2017 for starting in June
of 2018 fair like when I finished
University so there was definitely more
leeway because I pretty much had six
months to go through the application
process but if there was less time for
when you're working to start the job
definitely people throughout time avoid
chasing up yeah I definitely add to that
it's not rude to share sup an email and
it's something that I kind of felt like
I was father these are people with real
jobs you have lots of seconds today and
I'm just a student
you know I'm sure right but if they
don't get back to you like people are
busy and like cheersing and up shows
here enthusiastic by that job and shoes
to your I get to actually sell in your
mind it's not just you applied to 500
companies or not you're not worried
about you know so James how long were
you how long was your interview process
with a beating so the way the BT
graduate scheme to be process works it's
perfect for my sections I want to say so
you have a few online tests once you've
done that you don't have a phone call
interview it's kind of soft skills that
you get for the role either tech phone
interview and then you have an
assessment center that assessment
centers a full day in Ipswich under me
and then that kind of has my challenges
you know your hair between one
individual one of the network diagram
and so comparatively to maybe some
smaller companies that's quite a long
program and it kind of makes you
actually sure that you actually want to
work for that company if you go from
that entire person did you cheers
through I did or did you just wait for
they were quite good to be that then
quite good to make keeping you involved
if you keep going events and stuff like
that is definitely run preparing for
other big companies that were less
involved now it puts us um so how was
your experience with into the process
good and I mean I thought it was really
nice I mean with mindfully I work in a
team of four pen testers and so it's
like really small team as it is so when
I was going for the job I think I
messaged on I was set an email because
he had my boss had a challenge on the
website so I sent my email literally at
four in the morning I've got reply to
five in the morning because my boss is
nuts
made a great way and a great way people
but yeah so for me I think when we
actually started the interview it was
really informal because I with small
companies you're not doing massive
technical interviews a lot of the time
you know it's more about fitting into
the team and you know what can you offer
so we just went for lunch like you
literally little hotel in Cambridge went
and sat had some lunch and just have a
chat and and it was a very like honest
it's like you know he asked me some
technical questions and some soft
questions and yeah it was just more
about gauging how you defend the team
rather than you know what your
experience level is I mean
I think at the end of it especially with
junior positions I can't speak when they
ask but like you know everybody is aware
that you know there are gonna be areas
missing but that's the whole point
because you're building up your skills
over especially the internships over the
year so you know it's interesting that
you mention like soft skills in
particular because I imagine this part
of a small team that it is quite I mean
not getting on with your colleague is
quite this is quite important and you
only got like a number of them right so
like yeah that involve was it like this
thing I mean everything for us is very
much like slack based and chassis anyway
so you know throughout the way that our
team works it's just communication
really it's making sure that you know
people know whether each other stand and
what's being done and that everything's
just organized well and I think
especially with our company they were
looking for people that have them
organizational skills but still have a
bit of common sense sinking off and go
right up and as he was doing let's do
that that's kind of thing so have a
question for you can generally related
to this albeit so he moved from job to
job rather than night of university into
jobs it was a how did they how did your
previous one experience come into play
in the like interview process like
because she'd been through before did
you find second how much easier or like
how did wildly different okay feel
because I moved from part-time working
at KFC to full-time working as
friendship I was very lucky to have the
part-time work was at college because it
meant switching into the apprenticeship
I was switching from part-time learning
part-time working two part-time learning
part-time working and then as a going
through the stages of the apprenticeship
that was slowly being evolved into
full-time working and that was how I
didn't really struggle too much in
acclimatizing myself it was quite it was
a very nice process so I very much
recommend apprenticeships mm-hmm in
terms of this sport I first getting a
bit off the experience with it as even
with enterprises I found a lot of them
are a bit more informal nowadays
I've never experienced the long kind of
tear by tear by tear by tear company
because it's bends yeah yeah the other
company I applied to for internships
they had like a web app that you had to
do a test on as well and I think things
like that you know when you're sat and
you're actually getting an opportunity
to do practical skills a lot of
employers now I've seen my I think NCC
have been engineering and a few other
companies do it so that they're great as
well and I think you get a real sense
again for yourself am I gonna be a fit
here is this the kind of thing I want to
be doing and I think at the end of the
day with employers when it comes to like
looking for this first job there's two
approaches really you can go down you're
going like the Hail Mary attack we're
going for everyone we're just sending
out 50 million applications I mean that
will work you know if you send out a
load then you know you've bounced hear
back from a few but I think the approach
that I would always recommend is like
sit and look at the company you know
look at them on LinkedIn and YouTube
them and all this and really get to know
the people like that are involve like I
know with the company end up working for
you know I was searching I looked
through the employees and I was watching
they had some videos when YouTube and I
it was but making me smile and I was
like you know I love the look of this
company of the feel this is why I want
to work so then when I was writing my
emails and stuff they were targeted to
the company I was like you know I like
this I've seen this and I would love to
be involved it you know this is what I
can offer you kind of thing and I think
that really helps because when you're
establishing that connection with the
employer rather than going hey hire me
you're going hey so-and-so you know I've
seen this about you and I really want to
work your company on this because you
know then you're building it you're
building a relationship and I think
that's nice so you were saying yeah so
I'm it is important to remember that
this is just our experiences and there
are massive variety event a few
experiences everyone will have so I went
from Lou and someone if you got me an
interview I couldn't come down with no
which was a pretty standard process to
something very formal that has a lot of
aptitude tests with a larger company to
then review which wasn't really an
interview which was the job offer I got
immediately after a talk so
that I wasn't aware that wasn't
interview I didn't expect them to be an
interview but the person who offered me
the job for like an interview so there's
a whole lot of different energy
processes and why do it depends on the
company yeah I think what you've just
said there as well when you're in like
when you're at places like this it's
important you know there are people here
like and this isn't just like people
that are doing stands like you know
there are people that work for companies
so making them introductions and going
oh yeah you know I'm here I'm looking
for a placement I'm looking for a junior
in my graduate you know by standing and
talking to someone again it's like
memorable because you're having that
conversation and a lot other times I've
found like you know they'll go off you
know here's a card like send me an email
and you know because you've already had
that prior conversation it makes it more
personal born again and I think I quite
follow this because it's something I saw
the experience was it obvious to to you
what you should prepare the questions
written all is of course um was it
obvious to you how you should prepare
for the interview process that you would
that you went through like was the
company helpful and guidance and F not
high did you like tackle that problem
because it's quite a lot but you could
potentially they asked right so how did
you guys approach that I just start
preparing for the interview like this
checking me you've got a little bit sex
covered not something you absolutely
make sure you understand what type of an
is really going for I've spoken to
people in the past you think they're
prepared in the fairway car and soft
skills interview then they get on the
floor and find out it's a technical
interview and the talk we're unprepared
so first and foremost make sure you know
what type of interview preparing for and
prepare accordingly
past that if you know it's going to be a
tentacle what if you just make sure you
revise your just general technical
knowledge just make sure you understand
what you what expense i one thing i
thought i funk will helpful that friends
of my nephews there are question banks
available and i know that actually the
the armored kayakers has on their wiki a
list of them to be fashioned yeah so i
actually wrote that page and so on the
hikes on vacation there's a simple
there's a big list of common intentions
and it's not saying like use the type of
questions that X company will ask its
the more generic stuff that comes up all
the time with every employer so it's
stuff like what's the difference between
TCP and UDP what what is our how does
DNS work stuff like that it's it's the
common stuff but that's I've had people
gave me feedback to say that that's been
a really useful resource because they
are really really common questions I
would Segway as well coming back to the
university thing if you are at uni and
you're applying for these jobs I would
like put it out there now but a lot of
courses will not prepare that bit of
text that some companies expect I know
our university doesn't and something
what we're trying to help build like you
know but I would recommend is start
early like if you're in first year you
know it's first year
like you know do a bit of a flight your
own time read some books you know hack
some web apps you know it's all about
experience because if you're building
that knowledge base up early then when
it comes to the tech questions you won't
and start some be panicking I think as
you said earlier in regards University
it really is what you make it like it
yeah I think there's so much opportunity
to learn that like like to like totally
go to the classes I feel you're doing
yourself a disservice because when it
comes to something wasn't covered and
quite like a tight curriculum and you
might be like oh no what's this yeah I'm
finding yourself time it's like the only
time in your life as well that you have
that much time look like when you
actually get a job your time doesn't
exist here so you do it well you've got
it I know time is fleeting okay so did
you did you interview in long companies
so did you see a common I better get a
particular type of Adobe process that
you saw multiple this mean a lot of
people have been applying for jobs now
and so if they even if they knew what in
due process to expect those be so like
you said in regards to the previous
question it does a very massively
depending on the size of the company
obviously what Chloe's experiences quite
informal because it's a small company if
you deal with a bigger company it's
going to know priori different
experience from that as well like you
have to remember with corporate
companies because they're so large
they're probably getting in so many
Haitians so when you're going through
their like filtering it down you know
with each stage it's like refining and
refining our fighting words
I think smaller companies probably have
less you know heavy load of people like
there's probably no not as much in flux
so they've got a bit more time to have
the personal conversation but I think
you know look at yourself and kind of
think oh you know what kind of company
do you think I'm think I'm gonna fit in
you know if you're like a chatty
sociable you know chill person you might
want like a side face chatty kind of job
but you know if you're a very much like
you like your office maybe more
corporate I think you know it's you have
to think about the kind of person you
are
yeah sorry third Segway Jack Soloff the
spine so I actually played for a long
companies so what doesn't is if I could
get like 30 odd but they were only in
about similar vein to BT sure so they
all had a very similar process so
they're all very much graduate schemes
they will very much have this kind of
this kind of like waiting awful
filtering process to them and they were
all very similar so you don't you know
you always always have your soft skills
you know sorts have your tech skills
you don't always have like an assessment
center or a bunch of grads would meet
one day they need to go through
challenges and that seems to be a very
kind of by-the-book approach what was
the hardest part of that do you think
what I've been so I think you learn over
time how to approach them I think for
your first ever Assessment Center like
I've no idea what's happening why they
asking these questions they seem ready
Hoff but I think over time you'll go to
more assessment centers you'll kind of
see what they're looking for and
sometimes the company just won't be a
good fit but then sometimes you'll find
one like BT where it's really good I
guess they're the only solution that is
to keep applying and keeps him writing
and researching a company which is hard
for you right yeah cool so okay so kind
of I kind of got there was a question
buying in a bit early but what types of
questions did you encounter German TV so
I think if we started with technical
interviews like what kind of technical
knowledge were you guys assume to know
so like I think it would be helpful like
just like to say your role and then like
what kind of like that question is Kim
come on
sure so I'm a junior pen tester
they based on that then these are going
to be bad interview questions are going
to be fantastically it is not going to
be kind of like I know Esther awaited
questions as far as the actual technical
interview goes it can be anywhere from
like hacking a web app to hacking
infrastructure that can be weird kind of
puzzle with things like that you get the
more general knowledge technical
questions like I mentioned out over TCP
and UDP and DNS and all that stuff how
do you prepare for that so I go like
this I go like the testing for instance
the web app and infrastructure testing
there any resources there's a lots and
lots of resources for practice and so
for practice and whether parkin you've
got stuff like the damn phone or web app
from all wars for practice and
infrastructure you've got stuff like
half the box you can spin up your own
like Windows XP box and just try and
shower I have certainly the university
we've got a load of vulnerable the ends
that we've used for various coursework
so you can go back and practice on them
for the technical interviews there's a
whole world of resources on why you both
public and some private and mostly free
some paid but some resources chucking as
well immersive labs if for uni students
social you can get it free and yeah
that's really good because that's just
on line and there's no fact about so
that's that's nice yeah no I'm so that
was ready and any bit of technical
questions which time for you and your
advice was written in apprenticeships
committees not so much not so much they
punch it but talking about when I was
getting my actual roles it was more it
was always a scenario base the same as
that but there was also a more of mix of
the soft skills kind of questions
because of a lot of the work come be
Incident Response and deal with
high-stress situations so things are on
fire
something spread in it's costing the
company millions a minute and it's just
assessing things like will you keep a
level head during that will you panic we
just completely shut down who would you
talk to
even if you didn't know the information
are you just gonna flap in the moment or
you can actually turn to your colleague
and go help how do you prepare for that
and that's the nice thing because I know
I find that quite difficult I
fortunately never had the scenario it is
difficult cause it is more of is more of
a split 50-50 so it's like the technical
side of knowing all the different core
aspects of information security that you
might know as a pen tester as well but
then you might have more specifics in
forensics looking at packet analysis
things like that monitoring looking at
alarms or what they mean are difficult
attacks things like that I can
understand and like the funny apples of
life and then how old that actually fits
in your day today and how you'd actually
deal with it and how you actually start
touching on things like risk it a bit
more governance e stuff just so you have
the awareness and how it fits into your
work and make sure you can actually work
with other people in the business a lot
of it is teamwork and getting things
fixed so just before we move on to the
next section
does anyone else because we are we will
need a few items relating to this part
of the other processes anyone else have
any questions related to like the
interview process or anything yeah it's
an XY cause I've um a nice study member
so I'm throwing I hope this one like
certainly some companies do pay to the
200 of you like certainly bigger
companies well we will offer to like
embrace your travel but although I
caveat for that it is and will be like
reimburse so you buy it and then they
will they will pay you back in some
cases in response to there are some
using Scotland but I think it's the
start the stylist industry is quite like
small like everyone knows each other so
like it goes a long way like I'm going
there are that coming up stubborn laws
do and like there are the there are
other mediums like around effin cities
in solid matter we're going to if you're
looking friend but don't want to be
unsafe and then did did anyone else
travel to interview you saw it as far as
reimbursement goes it doesn't hurt to
ask if you send the recruiter with HR
pass an email and say hey are you going
to cover travel they're not gonna be
offenders like it's not like it's coming
out of your paycheck it's coming out of
the company they're not gonna be
offended if you ask it would hurt to ask
I've danced then you may have to wait
for it
I had one employer offered to boot
fights for me why they would do it so I
wouldn't go if pocket one other company
asked me to pay then the reimbursed me
within like two weeks then there was an
our company are we in two months for my
expenses to come back yes with the
bigger companies most the big companies
will expect you lying there you're going
to expense to grow soon to be team
definitely affect rankings and other big
companies will expense your travel yeah
I will say smaller companies it is a lot
harder
I know it's my company there's certain
things they'll cover they'll cover
travel and stuff but you know
accommodation and stuff yeah I think
that's the thing like bigger companies
are definitely a lot more money because
they're bigger but I think what you've
said you know ask because a lot of them
you know at the end of the day if you're
impressed the money you feel at the CV
is impressed them enough that they want
to see you then that you know you have
to approach it like oh it's a positive
thing so they want to invest in you
almost I think something to remember is
that like recruitment is expensive oh
yeah like that they felt they're done
candidates and they've paid you why did
you do an interview if they're going to
say oh no we're not going to cover your
cost so it's like a some tough love like
it like for the company any normal
person I would also add to that what I
said earlier like when you when you are
applying if you're filtering it down and
making sure the best is like you love
the company first rather than get there
and decide all you know this might not
be the right fit if you spend that extra
time that can be quite valuable
okay any other questions is for Yvonne
hi
so the other junior my important didn't
have any expectations we have
certifications some employers your
advancement depends on getting
certifications so if you have them it
might help you to advance quicker but
there's certainly no expectations and
certifications are expensive they're
real expensive and even more so for a
student yeah I would say I'm quite lucky
on my internship my employer is actually
paying three studio SCP so a lot of the
time feeling like an internship or
something you know you can kind of work
it into the inch bingo oh you know I'm
really interested and kind of getting
these because once you've done it in one
job you know then it's something that
will stick with you for life kind of
thing I don't think it's the be-all and
end-all some certifications have more
value than others yeah yeah so without
going to specifics some will have more
values and others but from my experience
there was no expectations from an
employer yeah yeah I definitely think
it's it's a good purpose to start the
fact that you're looking for like four
ways to develop you're learning outside
of university like that's essentially
you don't need to like you need to spend
money to they can do that you can prove
that you're in chess and you're like
wanting to that improve your knowledge
with other ways like through your label
the source
like making it like a project yourself
or eventually with some of the
certifications there there's back is
online so like even taking a stop with
it without having access to materials
and learning the kind of stuff that will
be tested it certainly like I mean no
one's gonna expect you to by the way
that I've always prepared myself for
technical you know moving into like a
pen tester or which is what I do
I've always do like VM so like one or
more machines sit hack it right report
and it's genuinely like if you can show
a especially for a pen testing point of
view a company that you can write a
report that is invaluable so then like
they'll love you so I'd build up like a
little repertoire like if you don't do
some vulnerable machines write up some
reports and then kind of you could go oh
I have this Pro X where it's saying with
like half the box and stuff I think it
tracks you and how much progress you're
making see you know I've done these
things
zygarde this level yeah and I think
that's helpful higher box is super
valuable I used as a student and I still
use it as a ground you valuable for a
tester yep volleyball protester maybe
not so much for an analyst position so
the question was do you have any
personal projects and where I'm already
asked by them certainly is this really
the big testing or is this just a
general kind of I didn't have
interpersonal projects really so I I
discussed like how I did half the box to
practice for training I discussed the
conference's I'd attended and some talks
that I would enjoy to certain
conferences the speaking opportunities
I've done the research projects I've
done at university but I didn't really
have any personal projects like
development related and if that helps
yeah obviously it depends on the person
like I said I'm not big on development
but if someone is more of a developer
then great if you've got some cool
projects I'm get Harvey in Freddy to
open source stuff growing in
so I should probably do the last section
so after you get the job I'm not sure
image in your possession it is quite
like a sum of this time and my garnet is
tuned so we did we did receive a few
questions so how do you keep up with
trends and new technologies now that
you've secured a job - I put it I spend
35 minutes on a tooth each way every day
and I use that time to read and so I use
that time to catch up on it'll set
Twitter catch up on white just next
second sysadmin subreddits how can use Y
Combinator in full security magazine
stuff like that I just used the time to
read and all of that stuff is keeping up
with the current affairs better than
wasting and I really Alta to do nothing
so I think answer this question is to be
very different depending on where you
are in your career right like if you're
a career changer like the older you
might have different responsibilities
and I think then your time window yeah
it's like I'm definitely flow people are
just like University great and if you've
got tons of spare time do these side
projects you know I said write articles
or write code whatever the fitment or
you get on your career or whatever
you're gonna get less of that full-time
so if they use it what you can do you
can do now you know in your spare time
doing some you know PM's and stuff and
also attending like meetups like I know
there's a lot of Def Con groups and you
know conferences and a lot of societies
as well so if you can get involved that
way you know you're not like stuck in an
office or in your bedroom kind of away
from the world it's you know it's just
you know kind of getting out and doing
the thing and I'm very often that I'm
Jim's a good grip it makes a great point
the way my parents implement people have
necessary like last time than students
unlike junior like professionals so you
have all the time in the world so it's
important to once you're in the job to
like discuss with your employer your
questions about them going forward
because like you are resource to your
company and they should be investing in
that resource and that's not you being
like gluttonous or greedy that's that's
just normal employment so speaking to
your boss about if you want
if you want a kid like stamp with trans
new technologies may go into conferences
and you should ask them to like fun to
trim 3 or you should see if you can at
least like like this get the day like
I'm not a date offer they either or
something like that like it like it
definitely is something that's very
possible I know a lot of companies do so
as a junior do not be scared to ask for
it if your company doesn't like a lot of
companies also do research dates as well
so they'll give you an allocated day we
can kind of spend it learning and
bettering your own skill set which on
this a lot of test results or later than
you can expect some time to just not be
on site oh my god again it's if you are
gonna have that conversation with your
employer and just know like you know I
want to be the best test or I can be for
you or I'm gonna be the best in this job
you know I'm really interested in this
skill you know is there some allocated
time that I can have to do that you know
yeah yeah
communicating is a big part of its
earning anything awesome
so a big one
how did you find us how you're working
full-time I'm supposed to good to know
you have to do are you just kind of know
I mean retracing what I said before is
very much a gradual transition from
splitting learning and working up and
then slowly working my way over to do
more and more work working full-time
have you any advice for people who will
be are building for the first time when
they get a job I mean once what some
pinpointed with the software Cyrano you
know better spring seventy percent of
the job isn't particular technical it's
more knowing people in the company it's
more knowing the right people and having
to deal with them all that's mostly what
I found
well my time is client-facing so it's
just knowing who to speak to where to
get the fastest resolution on whatever
the issue is still investigating
properly and that's say 70% small 90%
they're human organizations right like
they're they're made up of other people
so they got their people problems
the transition from ego into full-time
employment working 40 hours a week and
on the wistful I reckon I've maybe did
about 60
we keep University my fighting over your
dissertation and stuff like that
so go into a full-time job which Alma
had 40 hours a week I would like back to
what I said earlier like communication
with an employee is important I found
like moving into my internship like some
of it quite stressful because you know
being thrown in pens I see like I had
Auto pen test and you're sat in your
learning but I think if you ask
questions I mean I've made some really
stupid mistakes I manage I think it was
like my first couple of weeks I manage
to delete - from Cali which is
detrimental to Cali because you need
Python for a lot of things and I was so
scared to ask my employer I you know
just it was so backwards and I think if
you go oh I've done this thing or you
know I've made this mistake can you help
me fix it or you know I don't understand
rather than you know sitting there and
letting the problem build because I know
for myself like I've spent many a night
crying because I'm anxious and worried
that actually you know employers you
know they're nice people your teammates
are nice people so ya know asking
questions knows it no one wants to make
their colleagues like feel bad about
something superb off that point just one
piece of advice that would be described
do something to support people so ever
that's in your company or in the
community just finding people that that
care people that can help that's
technical or on the soft out on Sunday
and I think asking for mentorship as
well like you know a lot of people on
Twitter offer it out and why does anyone
need help I'm good at this thing so you
know putting out their big motto you
know I'm really interested in learning
how to do web app test so that you know
talk to a pipe tester and you know get
some help that way if you need support
employers above all so depending on the
employer offer mentorships giving as
well so I've started her junior Pentax
her but I'm quite keen to go down the
red team route so I'm working with one
of our good red teamers as as I kind of
like he's like a mentor to kind of guide
me down that path to becoming a
readiness full-time okay on that point
of kind of things that companies offer
big companies as well as offer Mental
Health First Aid so if you ever find
yourself in that corner to do you have
to talk to you that's what was a great
vice and something
actually having your company that I'm
failing an employer is offered in the
community as well so we now have mental
health hackers which is now community
I've been healthy status we've ran a
workshop leads well so long ago and a
bunch of us are on them at all those
days as well I think so we're gonna sum
this up as advice for people looking
into the other second story so I got a
call for action what is the most
important thing that students nowadays
should so I'd say that if you do have
that dream job
that's a gopher right if it is you're
drinking eventually we'll have wherever
not you have to take multiple stepping
stone jobs to get one eventually you'll
get and you'll be smart enough would be
the best you can be great you just have
to get I think you dig trying train
never stop learning with network I think
you know when you know all these people
it just is invaluable to the grander
scheme of everything like I've seen
people get jobs on Twitter and I'm like
and an important thing we thought is if
you're finding a lot of people said when
I say or not working really important
they say like none of the opportunity to
network and like it's not behind you to
create those opportunities to network
might find something which other people
will be interested in and like make it
public that you're working on there's
not only as you discussed our new years
of great for building like it like like
like building your resume and also like
well attract attention and people will
be interesting what you say and not kind
of these some more Virginia so yeah yeah
cool well the fun you very much for a
furnace in this we are we're looking to
try and solve some of the problems and
like juniors getting into the industry
because a lot of it it's quite a thick
and I law that's quite that's the scary
time in our lives
anyway I'm like it's certainly not made
easier by the pressure just for them us
by like by work so if you get us
following Twitter or given if you
[Music]
through the whole process
hiring people and seen table specs been
done sure you realize that people do
miss John specs are human asshole
they sometimes don't know all the
details so they yeah these buzzwords
like Oh
CSP and epic Ohioans are they put that
in that's on this bear claw my advice is
if you don't have it if you can do those
requirements on the job anyway how
important I find it I I don't take CDs
but I think it shows looking for a
positive of it I think it's like showing
previous work experience shows the match
the job sort of thing and my respects
it's good and then like in depending on
the job site director instance bar staff
work well show soft skills and so on and
so forth so I think it should be thought
of in the context those like the high
desert Hudson
in my application whether it's like wait
one minute but did you guys pay your
premium jobs like didn't know I tried to
do Plan C CB thing
make it cute alright mine's all over the
place but instead I took out things like
that and I did have a section for like
skills and I try and include them
elsewhere
I mean I do think you know like more
experience as you said like if you're
putting something like that it's it's
not gonna harm your application about
that matter especially like first job
kind of situation it's you know I would
say it would probably be better to have
that like if the battery on the
experience you have been working might
as well put it in like yeah like I let
you have this action then annoy so for
example like I think I pick my retail
jobs that I had on my CV because it felt
like I you said it shows people skills
that show soft skills so if you can deal
with the hard customer and retail it
shows those scale was a semi transparent
to deal with clients who maybe are a
hundred percent Compton all the
assignments shows people skills okay I
think we're different regressions drop a
so excited well bear on place
[Music]