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uh

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uh

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[Music]

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hello and welcome my name is janinta

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vacadasa i'm an activist from bolivia

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and i also work at the human rights

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foundation

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it's an honor for us to hold this panel

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in partnership with the city of oslo as

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part of our program called defending

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debt offenders

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through this program href is able to

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support the work of brave environmental

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activists across the world

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who are facing up to authoritarian

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regimes in order to protect

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the world's flora and fauna defending

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the defenders was

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first launched in 2019 at the australian

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forum

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the global human rights event that the

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human rights foundation holds annually

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in oslo norway we are excited to bring

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this conversation to rightscon because

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the killing of

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indigenous leaders and environmental

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activists across the world

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in order to cover up environmental

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crimes and silence

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whistleblowers is very commonplace at

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this point in history

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and something must be done in order to

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stop this personally as a young bolivian

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activist i've experienced

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the risk of working for defending the

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environment

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in authoritarian regimes last year when

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bolivia faced an environmental crisis

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many of us activists were heavily

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persecuted by the bolivian government

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because we dare to speak up

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in defense of our forest the bolivian

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government had just legalized the use of

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fires in forest areas in order to expand

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agricultural territory

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since my government had made a deal with

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the chinese government that we were

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going to be exporting high amounts of

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beef

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in the quantity that bolivia had never

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produced before

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as a result over 5 million hectares of

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forests were lost

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as well as the lives of many firemen

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this is why we must understand that

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human rights and environmental issues

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are not separate issues and they are

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both

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meant to be protected by the

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international community today to lead

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this discussion we have melissa matani

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who is a member of the of the also

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freedom forum

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she's a wonderful journalist and a

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social tv producer for cnn

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and she will be leading us today as we

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speak to brave environmental activists

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who are currently protecting the

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humanities most

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important source of life mother earth

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herself

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thank you melissa thank you so much

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janiece it really is a pleasure for me

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to be a part of this

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really important conversation

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environmental activists

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environmental journalists and the work

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they do is more important than ever

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and unfortunately we are seeing less of

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it because it's increasingly dangerous

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as authoritarian governments feel more

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emboldened around the world

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it was dangerous before the coronavirus

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pandemic hit and in many cases is even

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more dangerous now

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we're going to have a really interesting

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conversation about the intersection of

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digital rights

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and climate activism shortly but first i

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want to introduce you

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to mark owner he's a goldman prize

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winner and he's the founder of the

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environmental ngo brain forest

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he led efforts to publicly expose the

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illegal agreements behind a huge mining

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product

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project in his country and he joins us

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now for a keynote speech

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mark

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ladies and gentlemen it's with uh

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great pleasure for me to speak today on

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this

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occasion i'm proud to be

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a member of the oslo freedom from

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community

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which connect me to a vast network

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of followers activists technologists and

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journalists

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it was part of the first defending

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the defenders panel discretion at the

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oslo freedom forum

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in 2019 and i am happy to see

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that our community of environmental

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activists

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is expanding i have

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absolutely engaged in environmental

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activist

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activism for a very simple reason

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almost 90 percent of my country

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gabon is covered with forest

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protecting and sustainably managing

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this rich natural treasure should be the

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responsibility

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of our government but we don't have

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democracy

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or the role of law in gabon

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for nearly 60 years

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gabon has been ruled by a single family

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from father to son

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those who criticize the environment are

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arrests

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are thrown in jail the internet

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and social media services are sometimes

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sensors

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protecting the environment by taking

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the stand again this authoritarian

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regime

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is difficult and dangerous for example

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i myself was put in prison for

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taking a stain with my ngo brain forest

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again

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mining project for one of the largest rn

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deposits

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in africa a chinese company

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in partnership with the government of my

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country

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initiated the project with promises

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of economics growth and the creation of

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3 000 jobs however

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this project induces a natural reserve

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which includes congo and mingoli falls

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these falls are classified among the

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most beautiful in

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central africa for taking

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a stand again this project i was

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subjected

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to a lot of harassment the police

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read my my ngos office

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i was accused of waiting to

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overthrow the government and sabotaging

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the development of my country

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the government came after my family

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to combat illegal logging in other

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environmental crimes

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my organization brian forest gabon

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does independent forest monitoring

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before the occurrence of covet 19 in

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march

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we did this monitoring through bath

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fields

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visit and communicating with people in

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the forest

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despite the power state of roads and the

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digital

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gates between the capital and the

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countryside

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since the lockdown restriction imposed

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by government

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the internet and digital tools have

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become

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essential for us to continue our

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activities

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we are gradually adapting to the new

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situation

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with to help of our partners such as

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the environmental investigation agency

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which is training us to use innovative

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digital tools to call reachtime

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information on illegal activist

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activities in the forest

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the tip of partnership is crucial for us

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in this period especially because

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it integrates the classic elements

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of our way of working with the

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innovative system and will also allow a

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better

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flow in information in order to continue

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defending

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the environment we need our support to

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defend

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our digital rights and access to a free

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and open internet we also need

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technology partnership to use innovative

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digital

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tools to expose environmental crimes

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thank you

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thank you so much mark and thank you for

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the tireless work that you continue to

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do

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so we're very lucky to be joined today

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by activists from all different regions

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of the world

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who i hope are going to be joining us

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now

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we have evgenia cherikova she is also a

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goldman prize winner

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uh let's see if hopefully she can come

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up on your screens

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she is uh originally from russia but she

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is now

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living in exile

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in estonia i'm told that she's not with

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us yet but hopefully she will be with us

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in a moment

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i do know that we have peter

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schwartzstein with us he's an

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environmental journalist and

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non-resident fellow at the center for

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climate security

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he has worked extensively in the middle

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east with a deep focus on water security

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which is uh there he is

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a very important topic facing the world

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right now and he recently spoke to

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dozens of activists for a piece he wrote

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about the authoritarian war

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on environmental journalism a very very

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timely article

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and i will let you know when we are

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going to be joined by hopefully evgenia

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and also ariel ruiz who's a cuban

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biologist who might be joining us

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but for the moment peter since i have

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you um i want to talk to you a little

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bit just about

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coronavirus i was saying before that the

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work that journalists do

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is so important and increasingly

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dangerous

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it was hard to do before the pandemic in

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terms of getting access to sites

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actually trying to get access to data to

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find out what the government is doing

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and in many cases that's ten thousand

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times harder

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with all of your experience in the

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middle east what's been your experience

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during this pandemic

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uh peter just hang on a second we can't

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hear you

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sorry all right i'm back now um

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wonderful for having me

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um uh no i mean as um

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uh kind of much of the world has of

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course found in in the last few months

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covert has

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uh turned everything upside down and

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environmental journalism is

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unfortunately very far from an exception

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uh on a purely practical level

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um kind of an inability for for

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journalists and particularly

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environmental journalists

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to actually access many of the places

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that we're writing about has been

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an absolute nightmare and this is not

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just a kind of a problem for those who

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who sort of fly around the place

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um such as the severity that many of the

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lockdowns that have been

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implemented over the course of the last

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few months that even journalists based

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in capitals or regional centers across

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the middle east and north and east

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africa

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have been unable to kind of reach many

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of these often isolated

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distant um uh areas in which a lot of

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the worst abuses are taking place

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so on that kind of logistical um basis

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this has been

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uh an absolute nightmare and on

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a practical uh kind of a

294
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:23,200
perhaps a sort of more um it's a

295
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,959
journalistic level

296
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,279
the very fact that the pandemic has just

297
00:12:24,959 --> 00:12:29,279
come to completely consume

298
00:12:27,279 --> 00:12:30,800
the world and by extension journalism

299
00:12:29,279 --> 00:12:31,760
over the last five months has sort of

300
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,439
pushed

301
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,800
climate change and other environmental

302
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,720
problems off

303
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,160
the front pages at a point when it kind

304
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,839
of for those of us

305
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,439
in the in the kind of environmental

306
00:12:39,839 --> 00:12:43,040
journalism community

307
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,560
it really felt like we were beginning to

308
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,719
establish some real momentum

309
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:48,479
um it's not that there's ever a good

310
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,560
time for a for a global pandemic but

311
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,880
this was a particularly bad one

312
00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:54,319
and then just one one final little point

313
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,240
i mean

314
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,920
the nature of of kind of many of the

315
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,040
worst environmental abuses

316
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:04,240
um is such that kind of a

317
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:07,279
pandemic style um lockdown is

318
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,680
an absolute boon uh for kind of a lot of

319
00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:11,040
these

320
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:14,319
um sort of repressive government and uh

321
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,519
irresponsible uh corporate folks who are

322
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:19,120
presiding over

323
00:13:15,519 --> 00:13:22,480
a lot of the worst um uh damage um

324
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:24,959
so again for for journalism and media

325
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,480
and and conservationism at large this

326
00:13:24,959 --> 00:13:28,800
has been a disaster

327
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,240
uh but for those of us on on on this

328
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,839
beat in particular it's

329
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,399
it's been extremely difficult to work

330
00:13:32,839 --> 00:13:37,040
around

331
00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:37,760
and you know what you were just saying

332
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,160
is

333
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,959
is so interesting i also feel like there

334
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,719
was a

335
00:13:40,959 --> 00:13:44,160
moving momentum in terms of climate

336
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,360
journalism we saw

337
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,000
last year for example that were the

338
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,680
global climate strikes this year before

339
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,279
the pandemic hit the rise of greta

340
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:53,439
tunberg which was getting lots of young

341
00:13:51,279 --> 00:13:55,279
people interested and it just felt that

342
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,800
even online there was just this momentum

343
00:13:55,279 --> 00:13:59,439
behind uh

344
00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,319
behind the climate in people's awareness

345
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,519
and i feel

346
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,240
that that has completely waned partly

347
00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:06,000
because

348
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,839
people are so concerned about other

349
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,160
things you know their health

350
00:14:07,839 --> 00:14:11,519
obviously sometimes especially in some

351
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,639
of the poorer countries

352
00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:17,920
people just struggling to make ends meet

353
00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:19,680
so the climate has shifted but you know

354
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,199
we have to be quite honest this is also

355
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,319
a very uh

356
00:14:21,199 --> 00:14:26,079
strategic attack by authoritarian

357
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:29,360
governments to get the climate out of

358
00:14:26,079 --> 00:14:29,359
the limelight would you agree

359
00:14:29,519 --> 00:14:32,880
i i certainly would and i mean

360
00:14:31,199 --> 00:14:33,920
unfortunately as we've seen in the last

361
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,639
few months it's not

362
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,000
just purely sort of recognizable

363
00:14:36,639 --> 00:14:41,120
authoritarian governments

364
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,760
um the trump administration bolsonaros

365
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,279
brazil

366
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,439
and an array of other countries that we

367
00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:47,279
wouldn't necessarily automatically

368
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,800
associate with authoritarianism

369
00:14:47,279 --> 00:14:50,480
also appear to have sort of taken

370
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,479
advantage of uh

371
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,560
the kind of all-encompassing distraction

372
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,800
is the pandemic to kind of loosen

373
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,079
uh environmental regulations to force

374
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,639
through um

375
00:14:58,079 --> 00:15:01,120
various um measures that in the us's

376
00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:04,160
case

377
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:07,440
have impeded uh folks looking to

378
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:10,480
um uh protest against um

379
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:13,760
fossil fuel pipelines um so this

380
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:15,600
is this has been um exceedingly

381
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,639
difficult and it's just a kind of um

382
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:21,040
an extension of uh

383
00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:22,720
kind of a problem that the

384
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,920
environmentalists and

385
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,000
everybody throughout the kind of

386
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,240
environment related world has has been

387
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,680
dealing with in recent years there's the

388
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:33,040
idea that the

389
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,079
development and growth and environmental

390
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,959
protection

391
00:15:34,079 --> 00:15:37,758
are kind of um sort of almost opposing

392
00:15:36,959 --> 00:15:40,719
forces

393
00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:41,519
and so if one has a country in which

394
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,399
there's like a

395
00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:44,800
particular clamor for um for new jobs in

396
00:15:44,399 --> 00:15:47,680
which

397
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,599
authorities are often extremely fearful

398
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,599
of the possibility of kind of fun or

399
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:54,240
underemployed youth

400
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,199
those are the instances in which states

401
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,279
and governments

402
00:15:55,199 --> 00:15:59,599
and and regimes often kind of go out of

403
00:15:57,279 --> 00:16:02,320
their way to kind of crush

404
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,360
um those who might look to defend the

405
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,639
environment so

406
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,240
what the pandemic has done in crushing

407
00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:09,440
kind of economic growth to an even

408
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,399
greater extent than we've seen

409
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,759
previously

410
00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:16,320
um it is most likely to kind of fuel

411
00:16:13,759 --> 00:16:17,199
an even kind of more accelerated

412
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:21,199
government bid

413
00:16:17,199 --> 00:16:24,000
to to kick-start economies once once uh

414
00:16:21,199 --> 00:16:26,319
once the the the disease has waned

415
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,959
somewhat

416
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,360
and you know so we have seen also i i

417
00:16:28,959 --> 00:16:32,239
suppose

418
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,000
one of the trying to be positive here

419
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,240
with everybody stuck at home you are

420
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,000
seeing more people search out uh

421
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,440
you know articles on the internet or

422
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,519
trying to to

423
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,800
look i mean it's it's kind of one of the

424
00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:43,920
things that you said obviously people

425
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,040
are looking for jobs and people are

426
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,479
looking for food

427
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,480
but then on the other hand they have

428
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,800
actually seen like what can happen to

429
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,399
the

430
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,839
to nature around them you know when

431
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:53,600
you're inside you're longing to be

432
00:16:51,839 --> 00:16:55,040
outside and you're kind of appreciating

433
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,480
those things more

434
00:16:55,040 --> 00:17:00,079
um have you seen like a difference in in

435
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,279
in how the climate is perceived in some

436
00:17:00,079 --> 00:17:02,399
of the different countries that you've

437
00:17:01,279 --> 00:17:04,480
worked in because

438
00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:06,720
you've written extensively about like

439
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,640
egypt for example and north africa but

440
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,079
equally you know your work extends to

441
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,919
other areas in the world

442
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:13,438
have you seen any similarities or

443
00:17:11,919 --> 00:17:15,280
differences that you would point out

444
00:17:13,439 --> 00:17:19,520
through regions or specific countries in

445
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:21,839
the way that they handle this

446
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,879
one of the things that's most um perhaps

447
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:26,958
arresting about

448
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:29,520
um talking to farmers and fishermen and

449
00:17:26,959 --> 00:17:31,440
regular urbanites um throughout much of

450
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,639
kind of north and east africa and middle

451
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,640
east my kind of

452
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,679
usual areas of work and and occasionally

453
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,000
further afield

454
00:17:35,679 --> 00:17:39,919
is that you don't get people um

455
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,000
republican party style

456
00:17:39,919 --> 00:17:43,520
climate change denialists like the the

457
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,320
fact that something is going horribly

458
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,559
wrong

459
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,600
with uh the climate and with the

460
00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:50,240
environment at large

461
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,120
is rather kind of blatantly obvious to

462
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,880
to everyone

463
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:55,039
even if they can't necessarily

464
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:58,840
articulate the concept of climate change

465
00:17:55,039 --> 00:18:02,080
in in in the terms that scientists might

466
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,840
um so that's a kind of a really

467
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,439
quite um i guess in your face

468
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,520
illustration of how

469
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,960
uh fast and how dramatically things are

470
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,840
are changing um

471
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,600
i'll give you an example in parts of

472
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,639
sudan kind of various villages that i've

473
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,520
been visiting

474
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,799
um on and off uh kind of over the past

475
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,639
three or four years

476
00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:22,240
the the desert sahara sands are

477
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,559
advancing at a speed

478
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,160
of up to a few hundred meters a year and

479
00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:28,639
so when you already have this kind of

480
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,919
very thin little belt of greenery either

481
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,679
side of the nile

482
00:18:29,919 --> 00:18:33,039
and it's getting kind of eaten away at

483
00:18:31,679 --> 00:18:36,559
at a pretty fearsome

484
00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:37,840
pace by the desert um you are in no way

485
00:18:36,559 --> 00:18:40,559
going to be

486
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,520
denying that something is horribly amiss

487
00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:43,678
the problem

488
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,639
of course is that many of these people

489
00:18:43,679 --> 00:18:46,720
lack

490
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,840
political agency to make their their

491
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,120
concerns heard

492
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:53,678
um and in many countries in which uh

493
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:54,559
governments are up against a fearsome

494
00:18:53,679 --> 00:18:57,760
array of

495
00:18:54,559 --> 00:19:01,280
of conflicts and financial crises and

496
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:04,320
often understandably to a certain extent

497
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:08,240
these things get kind of buried uh amid

498
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:10,240
other concerns um so uh

499
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,799
yeah there's one of the consistent

500
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:16,720
threats however is that kind of

501
00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:18,480
fairly broad um perception that the

502
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,200
global environmental conditions are

503
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,880
spiraling out of control

504
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,240
you know it's it's so ironic because

505
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,440
it's like when you talk about it in

506
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,720
those terms and it's

507
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:30,480
it's literally like it's almost a matter

508
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,039
of life and death in some countries you

509
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,880
know

510
00:19:31,039 --> 00:19:34,559
all national security depending on what

511
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,720
you're talking about whether it's sudan

512
00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:38,559
or whether it's food security or whether

513
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,640
it's water security

514
00:19:38,559 --> 00:19:42,720
it just seems to me that these leaders

515
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,840
would benefit so much from trying to

516
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,919
actually

517
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,360
protect their country's biodiversity

518
00:19:45,919 --> 00:19:49,200
protect their country's natural

519
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:51,039
resources and in some ways it would be a

520
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:54,080
hero to their own people

521
00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:54,879
and the fact that they are so eager to

522
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,120
kind of crush

523
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,120
these movements or crush the information

524
00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,439
in the people who are trying to get this

525
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:04,320
information out is just

526
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,360
you know crazy i mean let's just take a

527
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,000
step back and assess

528
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:08,399
why they're so reluctant to act and why

529
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,840
they're

530
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,760
they're so eager to crush these

531
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,399
movements do you think it is

532
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,200
money uh do you think it's power or do

533
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,400
you think it is

534
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,400
a mixture of both

535
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,000
well yeah i mean you've hit on on what

536
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,120
is perhaps the single most frustrating

537
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,880
thing about

538
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:26,559
the entire crackdown on on the

539
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,400
conservation movement globally which is

540
00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:29,520
that it doesn't really make sense like

541
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,120
the environment

542
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,280
ought to be an issue that kind of cuts

543
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:35,280
across ideology that cuts across

544
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,799
all sorts of other other political

545
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,879
cleavages it ought to be

546
00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:40,320
an area where kind of otherwise

547
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,640
controversial

548
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,158
politicians ought to be able to um

549
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,159
really set themselves apart

550
00:20:44,159 --> 00:20:48,960
but i think the very fact that we're

551
00:20:46,159 --> 00:20:51,200
here is a is an illustration of um

552
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,400
of a different reality as to why that

553
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,400
happens well

554
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,600
of course it it differs somewhat from

555
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,320
from region to region

556
00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:00,000
to country to country um but for the

557
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,399
most part it's it's a kind of potent

558
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,280
combination of

559
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,360
of money of power um and of horribly

560
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,320
mispraised priorities from a financial

561
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:11,199
perspective

562
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,879
even though inordinate kind of

563
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,360
inordinately large numbers of people

564
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:17,440
generally majorities throughout a lot of

565
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:19,360
the kind of hardest hit countries in in

566
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,640
africa and south asia and southeast asia

567
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,479
and latin america

568
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,840
realized that things are going wrong

569
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,120
many of those are the kind of real

570
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,760
centers of power

571
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,559
have either vested financial interests

572
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,960
with

573
00:21:28,559 --> 00:21:33,440
a lot of the kind of deeply polluting

574
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:36,400
industries like fossil fuels or mining

575
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,000
or logging or agribusiness and as a

576
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,159
consequence they're among that kind of

577
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,600
narrow minority that often do have a

578
00:21:40,159 --> 00:21:44,400
serious financial interest in

579
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:47,760
maintaining this sort of polluting um

580
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:49,360
fossil fuel burning um status coil

581
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,799
and then there's yeah there's the power

582
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,240
element which is that a lot of kind of

583
00:21:50,799 --> 00:21:56,000
authoritarian governments

584
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:58,640
are deeply distrustful of of the idea of

585
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,679
citizens kind of coalescing around a

586
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,480
particular issue

587
00:21:59,679 --> 00:22:03,039
no matter what that issue is um and so

588
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,080
as

589
00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:08,240
i mean for most of the last few decades

590
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,520
with plenty of exceptions here or there

591
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,200
the environmental movement

592
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,039
in the middle east and north and east

593
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,000
africa was seen as

594
00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:17,600
as i mean like a bunch of harmless tree

595
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,960
huggers and as a consequence they

596
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,280
largely escaped

597
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,000
um a lot of the the kind of worst

598
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,158
treatment

599
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,679
dished out to other forms of civil

600
00:22:24,159 --> 00:22:28,320
society activists

601
00:22:25,679 --> 00:22:30,080
but as the environment has been kind of

602
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,200
deteriorating at this kind of ever more

603
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,120
rapid speed

604
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,480
as climate change is just hitting home

605
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:36,799
harder and harder

606
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,960
um a lot of these governments like those

607
00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:41,120
of iran and egypt and elsewhere

608
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,640
have kind of slowly woken to the fact

609
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,879
that well these

610
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,080
supposedly harmless tree huggers from

611
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,480
their perspective

612
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,918
are actually sort of messengers or sort

613
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,760
of emissaries of a

614
00:22:49,919 --> 00:22:52,960
potentially destabilizing political

615
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,720
force um

616
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,880
and so it's the kind of oldest trick in

617
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,039
the book they they shoot the messengers

618
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,919
um and then the final the final thing is

619
00:22:59,039 --> 00:23:03,039
that i mean

620
00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:03,520
as unfortunately we know um and this is

621
00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:06,320
true

622
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,280
not just of of of countries throughout

623
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,120
um

624
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,039
developing world but but in europe and

625
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:15,039
east asia and in the us as well

626
00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:17,120
a lot of politicians um just seem

627
00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:18,960
like by nature perhaps of their age or

628
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:21,439
by nature of just being

629
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,320
slightly blinkered folks um unaware of

630
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,799
the extent

631
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,720
of the environmental damage out there um

632
00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:30,320
one of the problems of course

633
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,760
on a global level is that a lot of um

634
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,600
the real kind of power brokers whether

635
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,400
they be in media or finance

636
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,399
or in politics are in cities that are

637
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,600
often spared some of the worst

638
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,360
um kinds of of environmental damage um

639
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,719
as opposed to the sorts of issues that

640
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:47,439
farmers and fishermen

641
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,799
in more rural areas experience and so in

642
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,600
some instances

643
00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:53,120
there's just a pure ignorance on the

644
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,399
part of of those in power

645
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:58,320
and as jarring and and uh unlikely as

646
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,159
that might sound

647
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,918
you know it was interesting because you

648
00:24:00,159 --> 00:24:04,240
you just gave a great example

649
00:24:01,919 --> 00:24:06,400
of how in some of the countries that you

650
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,080
cover there aren't climate deniers like

651
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,360
you're seeing here in the gop

652
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,879
party but um because the evidence is

653
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,918
just there for all to see

654
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:18,880
but in it but you still see this rise of

655
00:24:15,919 --> 00:24:20,720
uh fake news it's just meant to weaken

656
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,640
these people who are as you said a

657
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,520
destabilizing force to the people in

658
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,440
power

659
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,520
now in in certain countries that you

660
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,440
cover you know

661
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,600
these mobile networks aren't that strong

662
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,799
i i don't think in sudan for example

663
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,199
they have

664
00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:36,720
it's not like every single person has a

665
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,840
phone like they probably do in

666
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,440
egypt or in dubai for example

667
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,199
but are you still seeing the spread of

668
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,919
fake fake news there

669
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,840
as as big of a threat as it is in some

670
00:24:45,919 --> 00:24:51,919
countries like it is here in the us

671
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:54,639
for example i mean in general

672
00:24:51,919 --> 00:24:55,520
yes um within the sort of environmental

673
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,159
sphere

674
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,840
it's it's harder to say i mean as as

675
00:24:58,159 --> 00:25:01,520
concerned as

676
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,158
so much of the public is about kind of

677
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,080
deteriorating urban air quality or kind

678
00:25:04,159 --> 00:25:08,559
of

679
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,600
extreme new kind of summer highs in

680
00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:11,360
rural areas

681
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,279
when you have so many other issues in

682
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:15,120
front of you um

683
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:16,480
kind of environment understandably

684
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:18,239
perhaps hasn't yet

685
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,679
assumed quite the sort of rhetorical

686
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,679
importance that it ought to

687
00:25:19,679 --> 00:25:24,320
so as a consequence of that sort of

688
00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:27,200
diminished rhetorical significance

689
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,678
um it's not yet as polarizing a topic as

690
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,600
it

691
00:25:27,679 --> 00:25:31,360
may very well soon be and in a way that

692
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,080
it sort of is in in other parts of the

693
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:34,000
world

694
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,360
however one of the very interesting ways

695
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,200
in which i say

696
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:38,879
fake news within the kind of

697
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,720
environmental sphere is beginning to

698
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,760
kind of seep into

699
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,679
um to the discourse is

700
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,080
well because kind of so much of the

701
00:25:45,679 --> 00:25:51,840
developing world particularly africa

702
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,320
has contributed um uh to such a meager

703
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,399
extent

704
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,320
to to climate change this is as we know

705
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:59,520
a predominantly kind of western

706
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:03,039
and east asian phenomenon um

707
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:04,960
or or responsibility um because

708
00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:07,039
most of these countries in africa for

709
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,760
example have contributed such a meager

710
00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:11,039
share

711
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:13,760
to global carbon emissions um

712
00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:15,120
there's sometimes a kind of temptation

713
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,799
to use

714
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,719
climate change this kind of big global

715
00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:20,879
phenomenon that's beyond

716
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,120
the control of local politicians as a

717
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,279
kind of foil for their own failures

718
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:27,360
so i'll give you an example in in

719
00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:28,799
nigeria within a lot of the conflict

720
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,799
resolution community

721
00:26:28,799 --> 00:26:32,320
there's a certain unease at the extent

722
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:34,879
to which authorities

723
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,720
are blaming climate change for violence

724
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,440
in the country's northeast with boko

725
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,080
haram

726
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,039
we know it to be sort of part of the of

727
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,360
the um

728
00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:44,320
equation we know it to be one of the key

729
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:48,000
reasons why

730
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:51,120
um farmer herder conflict and jihadism

731
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:54,480
are continuing to spiral there um

732
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:56,639
but we it's only one um and it's uh

733
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,240
kind of been talked up to far too great

734
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,000
an extent by

735
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,919
government and by government-affiliated

736
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,200
media because it's a useful way of

737
00:27:01,919 --> 00:27:06,320
deflecting from

738
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,679
their own failures and their own uh kind

739
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,120
of

740
00:27:07,679 --> 00:27:12,880
contributions to to that conflict um so

741
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:15,039
it's just a little a little snapshot

742
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,640
as to how a different form of

743
00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:19,840
climate-related fake news can

744
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:21,360
can play out it's it's really

745
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,480
interesting and it's it's it's really

746
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:23,918
interesting just to

747
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,200
hear about your knowledge and your

748
00:27:23,919 --> 00:27:26,080
experience in all of these different

749
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,679
countries which

750
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:32,559
give us such different sort of uh

751
00:27:29,679 --> 00:27:34,399
case scenarios of of of how the climate

752
00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:37,520
is almost being weaponized

753
00:27:34,399 --> 00:27:39,439
um what about facebook i mean

754
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,720
you know we had mark zuckerberg here

755
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,600
testifying on the hill

756
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,480
and i'm just interested is facebook seen

757
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,918
uh

758
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,120
as a spreader of fake news or as a tool

759
00:27:47,919 --> 00:27:52,559
for the environment

760
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,559
and some of the countries where you are

761
00:27:53,919 --> 00:27:57,840
i also apologize that it's just a

762
00:27:55,679 --> 00:28:00,799
doorbell this is what happens when you

763
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:03,760
go online from home

764
00:28:00,799 --> 00:28:05,200
yes no no i'm waiting for all sorts of

765
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,240
bangs and whistles in the background in

766
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,360
my apartment

767
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,360
um again it's it's somewhat hard to say

768
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,479
purely because the environment doesn't

769
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,279
yet have

770
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,039
the the importance and by extension the

771
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:19,120
sort of i guess power to polarize that

772
00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:20,960
that perhaps it ought to they're in a

773
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:23,120
um from an environmental perspective

774
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,360
perhaps a few years away from

775
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:27,039
from climate change being the um the

776
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:29,439
kind of lightning roy issue that

777
00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:31,039
that unfortunately itself and is in in

778
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,799
europe in america

779
00:28:31,039 --> 00:28:34,640
and and in a number of other parts of

780
00:28:32,799 --> 00:28:38,240
the world um

781
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,840
however because kind of climate

782
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,279
and environmental activists within the

783
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,520
middle east are very slowly beginning to

784
00:28:43,279 --> 00:28:46,320
to sort of mobilize in real numbers and

785
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,480
because

786
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,960
facebook uh within the middle east for

787
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,440
example is extremely popular and like a

788
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,320
prime

789
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,200
means um for mobilizing kind of large

790
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,360
groups in

791
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,320
in countries in which protest is often

792
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,879
deterred

793
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,439
um there are all sorts of kind of

794
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:06,159
mutterings about kind of

795
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,039
government um security service

796
00:29:06,159 --> 00:29:09,840
infiltration

797
00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:11,440
of uh environment civil society groups

798
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:15,918
in places like iraq

799
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:17,679
there's an excellent baghdad based

800
00:29:15,919 --> 00:29:19,760
water campaigning group called save the

801
00:29:17,679 --> 00:29:21,360
tigers which has done excellent work in

802
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,640
trying to draw attention to the

803
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,240
um desperately sad and depressing state

804
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,960
of the tigris and euphrates rivers in

805
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,960
iraq

806
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,640
um and there's certainly been a number

807
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,039
of instances in which

808
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,159
they believe i think the good reason uh

809
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:36,559
that some of their kind of

810
00:29:34,159 --> 00:29:37,919
facebook organized events um have been

811
00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:41,200
sort of sabotaged

812
00:29:37,919 --> 00:29:43,039
from within by by security and iraqi

813
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:47,279
security affiliated folks

814
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:50,480
um so uh kind of as things stand i

815
00:29:47,279 --> 00:29:51,919
i think social media hasn't yet um

816
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,520
from from an environmental perspective

817
00:29:51,919 --> 00:29:56,799
become the

818
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,399
perhaps negative force that it has in in

819
00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,240
many other domains but

820
00:29:58,399 --> 00:30:02,239
i fear that that as sort of

821
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,760
environmental issues um

822
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:08,320
continue to gain in in some

823
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,799
popular interests that that scenario

824
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,799
might change

825
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:17,039
and so with the coronavirus pandemic

826
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,640
you know it's only going to get worse in

827
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:20,559
some of these countries in

828
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,799
africa for example in the middle east

829
00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:25,520
because whereas i mean

830
00:30:22,799 --> 00:30:27,279
that africa especially is poorer and

831
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,720
it's not as equipped with its health

832
00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:30,960
facilities to deal with

833
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,640
this kind of outbreak how do you think

834
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:37,039
that's going to infect environmental

835
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:38,399
journalism going forward

836
00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:39,760
i mean all of us are sort of flying by

837
00:30:38,399 --> 00:30:42,000
the seats of our pants at the moment

838
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,320
aren't we um it's just extremely hard to

839
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,200
plan more than a few days in advance or

840
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,158
even

841
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:50,240
um kind of have a decent sense as to as

842
00:30:48,159 --> 00:30:52,320
to what the pandemic uh

843
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,000
kind of state in various countries will

844
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,240
be even a week

845
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,320
in advance however one of the

846
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,600
unfortunate trends that that i

847
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,439
and many others within the kind of

848
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,399
environmental journalism and wider

849
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,279
environmental world

850
00:31:02,399 --> 00:31:06,799
fear is a kind of continuing crackdown

851
00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:09,200
on

852
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:11,440
perhaps that the single most vulnerable

853
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,799
bunch of environmental journalists and

854
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,480
environmental activists

855
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:15,840
and that's those who who actually

856
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,600
operate in

857
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,279
the most rural and the most distant

858
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,760
parts of their countries

859
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:26,000
from an environmental journalism angle

860
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,440
the single most um victimized and

861
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,519
harassed bunch of

862
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,600
journalists are those who work for kind

863
00:31:29,519 --> 00:31:32,000
of small town newspapers or small town

864
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,519
tv

865
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:37,600
outlets or or blogs uh within kind of

866
00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:39,679
rural parts of india and indonesia and

867
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,799
iran and places like that

868
00:31:39,679 --> 00:31:44,559
they lack the sort of protection of the

869
00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:47,279
kind of human rights community

870
00:31:44,559 --> 00:31:47,840
at large that that's often centered in

871
00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:50,080
uh

872
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,879
kind of capitals and other major urban

873
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,320
centers

874
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:56,799
um they often um of course live with

875
00:31:54,320 --> 00:32:00,399
with their families at the mercy of

876
00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:03,279
of local bosses of local political types

877
00:32:00,399 --> 00:32:04,158
of of of major and powerful corporations

878
00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:05,840
many which are

879
00:32:04,159 --> 00:32:08,159
kind of deeply in bed with those

880
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,879
political players um

881
00:32:08,159 --> 00:32:12,000
and so when the dust ultimately settles

882
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,799
once

883
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,120
when kind of we're finally able to sort

884
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:17,918
of

885
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,678
come up for air and examine the kind of

886
00:32:17,919 --> 00:32:22,399
environmental fallout from

887
00:32:19,679 --> 00:32:23,519
covid uh i and many others have a very

888
00:32:22,399 --> 00:32:24,879
big fear that

889
00:32:23,519 --> 00:32:27,440
that that kind of particularly

890
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:30,960
vulnerable subset of conservationists

891
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,399
uh might have been hit extra hard um

892
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,559
kind of in that in that sort of relative

893
00:32:32,399 --> 00:32:36,158
news blackout and vacuum that that's

894
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:39,200
existed in a lot of these places

895
00:32:36,159 --> 00:32:41,039
over the last five months

896
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,640
so as an environmental journalist who

897
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:44,000
has worked in all of these countries

898
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,399
what keeps you up at night

899
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,240
what is the biggest fear or the biggest

900
00:32:46,399 --> 00:32:48,719
challenge that you think is facing the

901
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,200
climate

902
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,200
right now

903
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,279
i mean for well for a moment to be sort

904
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,679
of on a macro level to be

905
00:32:57,279 --> 00:33:01,120
stunningly unoriginal it's the the speed

906
00:32:59,679 --> 00:33:03,440
at which um

907
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,039
uh fossil fuels continue to be burnt and

908
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,679
will almost certainly continue to be

909
00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:07,919
burnt

910
00:33:05,679 --> 00:33:09,679
uh over the following years i mean i

911
00:33:07,919 --> 00:33:12,080
mentioned that that brief

912
00:33:09,679 --> 00:33:13,760
example of villages in sudan that are

913
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,639
finding their kind of relatively scarce

914
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,720
greenery

915
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,919
um disappearing at the most

916
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,360
extraordinary speed

917
00:33:17,919 --> 00:33:21,039
that's the kind of scenario that's just

918
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,039
playing out um

919
00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:24,080
in so many of the world's kind of

920
00:33:23,039 --> 00:33:26,640
hardest hit

921
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,439
uh landscapes um particularly the sort

922
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,799
of hot

923
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,080
uh arid or semi-arid um kind of middle

924
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:34,720
latitudes

925
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,840
on a perhaps a more slightly more

926
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,519
manageable level

927
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:42,080
the sort of continuing and um

928
00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:43,840
intensely sort of problematic volumes of

929
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,399
kind of water and air pollution

930
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,799
in many of these places are are kind of

931
00:33:46,399 --> 00:33:52,080
maximizing the impact of climate stress

932
00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:53,840
um in iraq for example uh where

933
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,080
kind of reigns have failed time and

934
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:59,519
again over the past decade and a half

935
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,480
um the the kind of extraordinary amounts

936
00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:02,080
of

937
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,240
agricultural and municipal and

938
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,480
residential filth that pour into the

939
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,639
euphrates and tigris rivers means that

940
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,480
kind of much of whatever

941
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,679
water is left over after those

942
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,000
diminished rains

943
00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:15,918
is unusable for for anything even

944
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,159
agriculture and such as the

945
00:34:15,918 --> 00:34:19,199
the kind of salinity of it that it's

946
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,839
sort of unusable for

947
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,560
perhaps all the date palms such as it's

948
00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:24,879
it's filth

949
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,799
that that families sort of wouldn't gain

950
00:34:24,879 --> 00:34:27,679
to even clean their cars with it on

951
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,960
occasion

952
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:32,240
um so for as long as sort of air and

953
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,720
water pollution

954
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,359
continue to sort of uh exact as as heavy

955
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,319
a price

956
00:34:35,359 --> 00:34:38,879
um as they continue to do in in many

957
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,119
places

958
00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:43,839
um that will just sort of add insult to

959
00:34:41,119 --> 00:34:46,480
injury um as climate change bites

960
00:34:43,839 --> 00:34:48,320
and then on a more sort of self

961
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,918
self-centered level um

962
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,000
the the crackdown on environmental

963
00:34:49,918 --> 00:34:54,239
defenders um whether they be

964
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,000
in journalism like me or or across the

965
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,040
board um

966
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,359
is worrying uh year by year the number

967
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,119
were killed goes up year by year the

968
00:35:01,359 --> 00:35:06,400
number who are pushed into exile

969
00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:06,880
or uh harassed or arrested or injured in

970
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,240
in

971
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:13,680
perhaps failed attempts to to kill uh

972
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:14,640
kind of creeps up um and not enough is

973
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,118
being done about it

974
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,118
um i mean if one one looks at the the

975
00:35:17,119 --> 00:35:20,000
cumulative total of environmental

976
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:22,960
defenders

977
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:25,119
killed last year and compares it compare

978
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:28,480
it to the sort of total number of human

979
00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:30,160
rights defenders who sadly also died

980
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,520
over the course of their work it's a

981
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,520
really inordinate share

982
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,880
and yet it's attracted a kind of tiny

983
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:38,000
fraction of the

984
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:40,400
attention that it's severity warrants um

985
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,520
so if we continue like that then um

986
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,240
there'll be some even

987
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,440
even fewer folks out there looking to to

988
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,520
sort of keep an eye on the worst

989
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,240
environmental abuses

990
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:52,480
so all of that's got to go to change the

991
00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:55,759
scenario that you just outlined there is

992
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:59,040
is is tragic i mean you know we

993
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,960
we need people like yourself to to shed

994
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,880
a light on what's actually happening so

995
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,200
we can do something about it

996
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,800
and you know you're certainly right that

997
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,640
not enough is being done about it and

998
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,400
more and more people are dying

999
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,078
what do we need to do to change

1000
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,480
attitudes to

1001
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:16,079
to get more people interested what what

1002
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,960
can we do what can the people who are

1003
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:18,960
watching this do

1004
00:36:19,359 --> 00:36:22,960
well there's the i guess the sort of the

1005
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,359
proactive and the reactive responses to

1006
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,079
that

1007
00:36:23,359 --> 00:36:28,160
the sort of proactive is just continuing

1008
00:36:26,079 --> 00:36:29,599
to sort of push back against the idea

1009
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,680
that the environment is just sort of

1010
00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:33,599
birds and bees and butterflies

1011
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,200
as it was traditionally so often

1012
00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:37,359
presented and this is a

1013
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,399
rather common line now but like the

1014
00:36:37,359 --> 00:36:40,240
environment is the

1015
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,240
is the water we drink it's the air we

1016
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:43,279
breathe it's the the soil that grows the

1017
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:46,000
food that we eat

1018
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:48,240
it's it's absolutely everything um so i

1019
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,480
mean as a matter of complete urgency we

1020
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:52,240
need to sort of get across the idea that

1021
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,640
the environment is a significantly

1022
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:57,759
significantly more expansive area

1023
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,720
um than most of us i think still still

1024
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,000
appreciate

1025
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:03,919
um the slightly more depressing

1026
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,320
kind of answer to that and unfortunately

1027
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,400
this is often a bit characteristic of my

1028
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,400
responses to these sorts of issues

1029
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,520
um is that a lot of the time i i fear it

1030
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,960
will just take

1031
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,480
um the kind of kind of crisis the kind

1032
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,079
of dislocation

1033
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,680
that we know climate change is going to

1034
00:37:18,079 --> 00:37:20,720
bring and that it already is bringing in

1035
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,200
many places

1036
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:24,720
to really hammer home the the stakes it

1037
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,839
played here to many of those in

1038
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:27,279
positions of power

1039
00:37:25,839 --> 00:37:28,480
and that's a depressing answer because

1040
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,400
at the point at which a lot of these

1041
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,160
crises are staring you in the face

1042
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,839
that's the point at which they're often

1043
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,040
too late to sort of fully address or

1044
00:37:33,839 --> 00:37:38,160
fully mitigate and

1045
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:41,200
certainly too late to to address um

1046
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:45,680
without lots of people um suffering as

1047
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:47,040
as a consequence um so i mean

1048
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,440
there is or certainly prior to the

1049
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,440
pandemic there was kind of a whole bunch

1050
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,480
of quite encouraging stuff like

1051
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,520
kind of things as meager as an article

1052
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,280
clicks on

1053
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,520
climate change or environment related

1054
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:02,000
articles we're continuing to soar

1055
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,520
in the last few years uh environment

1056
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,359
issues have kind of creeped their way

1057
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,599
from from the back pages of

1058
00:38:05,359 --> 00:38:08,480
newspapers right to the front much of

1059
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:11,440
the time

1060
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,000
um there is kind of positive news out

1061
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,240
there

1062
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,440
and there are positive trends and we see

1063
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:17,680
that that kind of

1064
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,040
young people in particular and others

1065
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,359
are significantly more

1066
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,279
uh concerned about climate change than

1067
00:38:21,359 --> 00:38:25,598
than than previous generations or

1068
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,320
or even kind of themselves several years

1069
00:38:25,599 --> 00:38:28,240
back

1070
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,520
it's just a question of whether we can

1071
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:33,279
force through those changes

1072
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,640
um at the necessary speed

1073
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,880
what do you think is the role of the

1074
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,440
international community

1075
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,119
now in actually taking action i mean at

1076
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,079
to your point we were seeing some

1077
00:38:41,119 --> 00:38:44,800
movement we were

1078
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:45,359
seeing you know for example the the

1079
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,320
paris

1080
00:38:45,359 --> 00:38:49,598
climate agreement which for we don't

1081
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,240
know whether the us

1082
00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:53,839
is really going to be a part of until

1083
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:55,359
after the election

1084
00:38:53,839 --> 00:38:58,320
so i mean you know this there's

1085
00:38:55,359 --> 00:39:01,598
definitely been a shift i think in the

1086
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,960
global order let's say and therefore

1087
00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:05,119
it's weakened a lot of these

1088
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,320
international institutions what what is

1089
00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:08,160
their role now

1090
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:11,040
in trying to actually bring about some

1091
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,040
positive change

1092
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,240
to my mind there are three big things

1093
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,640
that that need to happen

1094
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:20,399
um and they're they're big kind of at

1095
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,920
this point seemingly unattainable things

1096
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,720
but things that we just need to get

1097
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,480
kind of working on uh a great rapidity

1098
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:27,439
the first of which is that we just need

1099
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,280
to show

1100
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,560
kind of repressive states those that are

1101
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,760
kind of cracking down on

1102
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,680
environmental journalists and

1103
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,520
environmentalists in general

1104
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,440
that at the very least their actions

1105
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,520
will come at a cost that they're noticed

1106
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,720
that they're that they're recognized and

1107
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,880
there's a very

1108
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:44,399
understandable tendency to sort of mock

1109
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,560
or belittle these sort of

1110
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,079
um proverbial statements of concern

1111
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,000
coming from the state department or the

1112
00:39:48,079 --> 00:39:50,800
british foreign office or the european

1113
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,640
commission

1114
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,800
um and while they're almost always

1115
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,359
insufficient they're not nothing like

1116
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,720
the very

1117
00:39:55,359 --> 00:40:01,520
idea the very knowledge that kind of

1118
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:02,000
outside countries including donor powers

1119
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,240
are

1120
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,920
uh seeing and watching what's happened

1121
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:08,959
can sometimes be

1122
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,880
sufficient to offer a degree of of

1123
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,240
safety to to those on the kind of front

1124
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,160
lines of all of this

1125
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:16,078
um the second thing is i mean one of the

1126
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,359
perhaps particularly unsavory trends

1127
00:40:16,079 --> 00:40:18,720
over the last few years

1128
00:40:17,359 --> 00:40:20,560
is the extent to which sort of

1129
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:22,959
repressive

1130
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,160
extent to which sort of um corporations

1131
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,480
particularly those uh

1132
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,680
engaged in in those polluting industries

1133
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,800
like mining and

1134
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,520
uh kind of coal extraction and oil

1135
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,119
refining

1136
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,839
the extent to which they've involved

1137
00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:36,720
themselves in pounding or pursuing or

1138
00:40:35,839 --> 00:40:38,078
sometimes killing

1139
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:39,759
environmental journalists or

1140
00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:42,079
conservationists and

1141
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,079
given that some of these companies some

1142
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:46,079
of the worst vendors are themselves

1143
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:48,400
american or european or at the very

1144
00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:50,800
least have operations within

1145
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,319
north america and europe is sufficient

1146
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,839
or should be sufficient

1147
00:40:52,319 --> 00:40:57,440
to um give the international community

1148
00:40:55,839 --> 00:40:59,839
uh a certain amount of leverage over

1149
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:02,400
them to to kind of rein in that damage

1150
00:40:59,839 --> 00:41:04,160
and the final thing and perhaps single

1151
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,520
most important thing the thing that came

1152
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,720
up the most

1153
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,599
as i was kind of researching uh this

1154
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:11,439
most recent

1155
00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:13,200
uh report that i did about about the

1156
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,240
kind of global assault on environmental

1157
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,598
journalism

1158
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:20,078
is kind of media's addressing media's

1159
00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:20,800
notoriously torture finances and and

1160
00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:21,920
well

1161
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,160
that's something that's extremely

1162
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,839
difficult to address um the fact that

1163
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,720
environmental journalism is seemingly

1164
00:41:25,839 --> 00:41:28,560
suffering

1165
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:30,640
from even greater financial problems

1166
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,799
than than media at large

1167
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,240
uh is is a big issue it's it's just

1168
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,160
sometimes not seen

1169
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:37,359
as the most sort of sexy or eye-catching

1170
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,960
topics uh

1171
00:41:37,359 --> 00:41:41,119
environmental investigations can be

1172
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,440
extremely expensive in a way that that

1173
00:41:41,119 --> 00:41:44,720
some

1174
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,880
kind of political coverage isn't um so

1175
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:48,000
i mean finding a way to address that is

1176
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,560
is significantly more

1177
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,359
difficult than articulating the problem

1178
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,920
um

1179
00:41:51,359 --> 00:41:55,119
but yeah environmental journalists are

1180
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,560
in many instances

1181
00:41:55,119 --> 00:42:00,640
willing and able and ready to uh

1182
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,560
take on the risks that come with with

1183
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,200
reporting this um but they can't do it

1184
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,040
if they haven't got any money

1185
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,960
you're so right and it's a very good

1186
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,839
point because it's not sexy and that's

1187
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,160
not what you see

1188
00:42:09,839 --> 00:42:14,160
you know on the front page of newspapers

1189
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,480
um i i mean i have to say that

1190
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,200
there is a lot of depressing news out

1191
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,560
there

1192
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,000
and it's very easy to just feel hopeless

1193
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,599
you know when you hear about what's

1194
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,359
going on and you hear about you know a

1195
00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:27,920
lot of the things that are happening to

1196
00:42:25,359 --> 00:42:30,160
uh climate activists climate journalists

1197
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,240
a lot of these people are our friends

1198
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,200
um but i will say that there's also a

1199
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:35,118
reason to be

1200
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,480
hopeful i do think that you know our

1201
00:42:35,119 --> 00:42:38,400
future is

1202
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,960
uh with the next generation and it's

1203
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:43,359
also very inspiring to see them be

1204
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,880
so passionate and care so much and try

1205
00:42:43,359 --> 00:42:46,720
and change attitudes because that

1206
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,280
ultimately does lead

1207
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:51,118
to putting more power sorry putting more

1208
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,200
pressure on those in power

1209
00:42:51,119 --> 00:42:54,640
i remember last year for example at the

1210
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,118
um at the un

1211
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,279
i marched with a lot of young people and

1212
00:42:57,119 --> 00:43:01,760
it was it was so inspiring

1213
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,359
so just to wrap out of this pizza i mean

1214
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,560
that's what keeps me hopeful

1215
00:43:03,359 --> 00:43:06,560
what keeps you hopeful

1216
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,520
there's a little bit too much of a do

1217
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,079
monger it is a a

1218
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,680
risk um when you talk to someone who

1219
00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:19,599
covers the environment across

1220
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,720
the middle east and in parts of africa

1221
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:23,839
um but you're right

1222
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:25,919
there is um some cause for optimism um

1223
00:43:23,839 --> 00:43:27,759
perhaps the first bit of which is is the

1224
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,240
thing you just mentioned like

1225
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,000
the younger generation is significantly

1226
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:32,959
more interested and significantly more

1227
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,280
motivated

1228
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,880
to tackle uh kind of climate and wider

1229
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,000
environmental woes than than their

1230
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:41,280
predecessors

1231
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:44,400
very young people listening

1232
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,280
yes um and while it's kind of

1233
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,359
become a little bit sort of

1234
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,400
stereotypical to sort of bring that up a

1235
00:43:47,359 --> 00:43:51,200
little bit unoriginal

1236
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,079
it is true and and if there is any kind

1237
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,919
of

1238
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:55,520
real force for change it's it's going to

1239
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,200
come from from from

1240
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,520
seemingly the under 40s for the most

1241
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,200
part and the second thing is this the

1242
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,960
i am sort of uncharacteristically

1243
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,319
optimistic about the

1244
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:09,359
perhaps long-term consequences of

1245
00:44:06,319 --> 00:44:10,400
of the pandemic um it's felt certainly

1246
00:44:09,359 --> 00:44:12,078
from a climate and environment

1247
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,760
perspective in the in the last few years

1248
00:44:12,079 --> 00:44:17,599
if we've been kind of sleepwalking to

1249
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:19,440
to our demise uh yes attention has been

1250
00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:21,119
on the up yes there's been kind of a

1251
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,800
little more action here or there

1252
00:44:21,119 --> 00:44:25,680
but it's been kind of the equivalent of

1253
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,520
applying a band-aid to the gaping wound

1254
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,799
and so i like to think that the kind of

1255
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,200
this shock this

1256
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,920
this realization that that life can

1257
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,839
change

1258
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,960
in extraordinary ways in a very brief

1259
00:44:33,839 --> 00:44:37,359
period of time

1260
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,800
will be the shock or perhaps the

1261
00:44:37,359 --> 00:44:40,400
opportunity that we need to sort of

1262
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,160
radically rework

1263
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,920
our our ways i don't think it's going to

1264
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,440
happen in the short or medium or even

1265
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,960
relative long term

1266
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,560
in that period i think things will

1267
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,400
continue there

1268
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,319
rather unfortunate trajectory but but in

1269
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:55,200
the long run um i i can

1270
00:44:52,319 --> 00:44:57,599
see how how this can be the spark that

1271
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,598
we need

1272
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,960
well peter i mean you know the work that

1273
00:45:00,319 --> 00:45:03,920
you do

1274
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,400
and uh the articles that you've written

1275
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,800
are so

1276
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,760
insightful and we really appreciate the

1277
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,400
work you do and

1278
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,800
we really need more people like you um

1279
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,640
and

1280
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,800
i would encourage that everybody that is

1281
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,560
watching i i just want to thank peter

1282
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,280
because we were supposed to have a panel

1283
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:21,040
of three people but peter has been our

1284
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,800
hero and i think you know he's you've

1285
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,480
been so interesting to speak to and it's

1286
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,400
been interesting to actually just be

1287
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,079
able to spend a bit more time with you

1288
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,079
and i would encourage others out there

1289
00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:32,319
to to read some of your articles and to

1290
00:45:30,079 --> 00:45:33,200
get in touch with him and to really find

1291
00:45:32,319 --> 00:45:36,400
out more

1292
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,759
and to support his work um so peter i

1293
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,640
really want to thank you for your time

1294
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,000
and for your

1295
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:45,279
patience and ariel who is

1296
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,160
um a cuban biologist who was going to

1297
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,720
join us but

1298
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,720
unfortunately couldn't i believe that he

1299
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:53,839
has recorded a video

1300
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:54,640
message which we will uh be able to play

1301
00:45:53,839 --> 00:45:57,599
out

1302
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,598
now i believe

1303
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:04,079
okay i'm told that we are we are being

1304
00:46:02,079 --> 00:46:04,640
joined by a virginia now who is from

1305
00:46:04,079 --> 00:46:10,060
russia

1306
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:12,879
for a couple of minutes she made it

1307
00:46:10,060 --> 00:46:16,560
[Laughter]

1308
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:17,839
good to hear me melissa i can hear you

1309
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,839
thank you i'm glad that you could

1310
00:46:17,839 --> 00:46:21,920
finally make it i i and

1311
00:46:19,839 --> 00:46:23,200
your voice is so important and we wanted

1312
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,160
to hear from you

1313
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,598
um i but i do believe that i only have

1314
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,879
two minutes with you

1315
00:46:27,599 --> 00:46:33,040
so i'm gonna have to ask you very

1316
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,359
i'm glad you can join us anyway but very

1317
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,520
quickly want to just ask you you know

1318
00:46:35,359 --> 00:46:39,200
how has this coronavirus pandemic

1319
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,280
affected the work that you do

1320
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,839
and what you're hearing from journalists

1321
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,839
from russia

1322
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,280
on my life it's really very difficult to

1323
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,319
explain

1324
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:54,720
who was the impact of coronavirus

1325
00:46:52,319 --> 00:46:56,480
virus on my life because it's changed

1326
00:46:54,720 --> 00:47:00,480
all my life

1327
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:02,640
for example i cannot to speak

1328
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,000
with my friends activists from russia

1329
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,160
because very often

1330
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:09,119
my friends from russia to move to

1331
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:11,920
estonia were allocated at this moment

1332
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:12,400
but unfortunately after pandemic problem

1333
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,160
it

1334
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:19,760
was impossible and i i stay alone

1335
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:23,040
and it's so difficult to to observe

1336
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:26,400
your friends and activists only

1337
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:30,000
through computer it's really difficult

1338
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:32,480
and uh but a situation with

1339
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,079
activism on russia at this moment really

1340
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,520
very very dangerous because

1341
00:47:34,079 --> 00:47:39,200
unfortunately

1342
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:42,319
uh putin regime to use coronavirus

1343
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,319
uh like

1344
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:49,040
precise for new repressions

1345
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:50,960
against activists and uh on russia it's

1346
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:54,160
really very very difficult

1347
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:57,680
to organize any campaigns

1348
00:47:54,160 --> 00:48:00,879
and uh to uh to protect rights

1349
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:05,200
of activists and at this moment you can

1350
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:08,079
found many information from russia

1351
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:10,319
from independent media uh that it's

1352
00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:13,359
really very difficult to organize

1353
00:48:10,319 --> 00:48:14,319
uh environmental campaign or other types

1354
00:48:13,359 --> 00:48:18,240
of campaigns

1355
00:48:14,319 --> 00:48:20,400
uh and uh activists on russia have a

1356
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:23,598
problem with pressure from

1357
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:27,200
a side of officials

1358
00:48:23,599 --> 00:48:30,400
and we have every day we get new and new

1359
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:34,319
information from russia that new and

1360
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:39,599
activists were arrested and uh

1361
00:48:34,319 --> 00:48:41,359
it's really very very sad at this moment

1362
00:48:39,599 --> 00:48:43,440
we don't have much time so i just want

1363
00:48:41,359 --> 00:48:45,359
to hear from you quickly

1364
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,359
you know we talk about digital rights

1365
00:48:45,359 --> 00:48:49,680
and these activists going online

1366
00:48:47,359 --> 00:48:51,680
but it's so hard in russia because putin

1367
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,480
has so much power he can just flip a

1368
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,440
switch

1369
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,599
and he senses everything you know he's

1370
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,960
just changed the constitution to give

1371
00:48:57,599 --> 00:49:01,839
himself an effect

1372
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,319
even more power if that were possible so

1373
00:49:01,839 --> 00:49:05,279
how

1374
00:49:02,319 --> 00:49:07,839
how are activists getting the word out

1375
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,839
where they are

1376
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,640
this is exactly what i'm talking about

1377
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:15,439
for the audience is she's just been

1378
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,879
silenced

1379
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,880
evgenia has left us

1380
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,439
if we can get a journey back then we

1381
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:25,359
will again her voice and her story

1382
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,119
is very very interesting especially

1383
00:49:25,359 --> 00:49:28,558
about her experience in russia but it

1384
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:30,480
just goes to show

1385
00:49:28,559 --> 00:49:32,319
that for activists or journalists we're

1386
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,240
trying to get the word out online it's

1387
00:49:32,319 --> 00:49:35,040
not easy there you are you're back with

1388
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:37,118
us

1389
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,960
i i was just saying with putin giving

1390
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:41,200
himself more power

1391
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,319
how hard is it for activists to get the

1392
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:46,319
word out now

1393
00:49:42,319 --> 00:49:49,440
online how are they communicating

1394
00:49:46,319 --> 00:49:50,558
uh at this moment in russia we have we

1395
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,359
can observe a

1396
00:49:50,559 --> 00:49:54,400
very horrible process because after

1397
00:49:53,359 --> 00:49:56,960
pandemic

1398
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,800
would regime to use this pandemic

1399
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:02,079
problem uh

1400
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:04,960
for their interests and they organize

1401
00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:07,040
a very horrible uh process they change

1402
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:10,880
constitution

1403
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:13,520
and uh of course it's impact on

1404
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:15,280
all russian society and of course people

1405
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:18,559
organized a huge campaign

1406
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:21,760
against this violation and

1407
00:50:18,559 --> 00:50:24,640
dozens of people were arrested and

1408
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,000
at this moment we can observe a lot of

1409
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,000
protest on regions

1410
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,119
of russia for example at this moment we

1411
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,640
have a huge prop

1412
00:50:29,119 --> 00:50:33,119
up a huge protest on khabarovsk on far

1413
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,160
east

1414
00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:39,280
of russia and uh masses

1415
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:42,078
of uh putin's socks put in

1416
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:43,599
bandits uh ban defendants really

1417
00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:47,520
horrible because

1418
00:50:43,599 --> 00:50:51,119
uh putin regime to use against activists

1419
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:54,160
all tools uh for example

1420
00:50:51,119 --> 00:50:55,680
a propaganda machine book against works

1421
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,879
against activists and

1422
00:50:55,680 --> 00:51:02,480
organize a fake news about

1423
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:06,240
activity of uh russian activists

1424
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:10,160
and uh spread lie about activists

1425
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:13,839
and of course uh it's it's impact

1426
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:16,078
for ordinary life of uh activists and

1427
00:51:13,839 --> 00:51:18,078
it's really very dangerous for example

1428
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:18,720
on russia it's really very dangerous to

1429
00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:22,079
publish

1430
00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:25,919
information through information on

1431
00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:28,640
internet and we have a dozens of cases

1432
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,599
when people only publish information

1433
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:33,200
through

1434
00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:36,720
through information and after that

1435
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:39,839
they have a problem and come to prison

1436
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:42,720
and i think that we live on

1437
00:51:39,839 --> 00:51:43,680
a fantastic time on russia at this

1438
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:46,640
moment behold

1439
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,200
because it's really very very strange

1440
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,960
why it

1441
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:51,439
happens but we have very big pressure

1442
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,720
from

1443
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,520
site of putin authorities but the same

1444
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:58,319
time

1445
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,640
we have increasing number of protest

1446
00:51:58,319 --> 00:52:01,599
group

1447
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:03,040
on region i think that it's impact of

1448
00:52:01,599 --> 00:52:06,240
coronavirus because

1449
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:10,000
people stay at home

1450
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:13,040
during many months and keep energy and

1451
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:15,280
at this moment uh in russia we have a

1452
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:17,440
problem with economic crisis and

1453
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,400
the putin resort has tried to get money

1454
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:22,880
from people

1455
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:25,520
and organize new and new uh horrible

1456
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:27,040
projects against people and people

1457
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:30,240
decide to answer

1458
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,200
that and uh to organize protest and you

1459
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:33,759
can absolve

1460
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,879
protest on bashkirstan for example on

1461
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:38,000
tatarstan or

1462
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:39,680
far east and if you want to find more

1463
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:42,880
information about

1464
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,040
that you can uh read information from

1465
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,319
our portal

1466
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,119
activatico.org every day we check

1467
00:52:46,319 --> 00:52:49,759
information

1468
00:52:47,119 --> 00:52:50,880
about activism russia and spread this

1469
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,640
information

1470
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:56,480
because we think it's really very

1471
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:58,000
important to give a voice for activists

1472
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,599
absolutely and that's one of the great

1473
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,000
things i was introducing you at the

1474
00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:01,920
beginning

1475
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,040
but unfortunately you weren't there but

1476
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,440
i was saying that

1477
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:07,279
you are now in exile outside of russia

1478
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,040
because you became a thorn in putin's

1479
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,640
side when you challenged some of the

1480
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,558
projects that he was doing

1481
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:15,078
and now you're giving a voice to those

1482
00:53:12,559 --> 00:53:16,559
others inside through your website

1483
00:53:15,079 --> 00:53:18,480
activatica.org

1484
00:53:16,559 --> 00:53:19,920
um i want to just quickly ask you i know

1485
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:23,119
we don't have much time but

1486
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:24,559
you know what is it you've i've had

1487
00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:26,880
conversations with you and we've been

1488
00:53:24,559 --> 00:53:29,040
talking about the rise of fake news

1489
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,559
in russia as putin tries to weaken

1490
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,400
movements like this but it's so

1491
00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:34,880
encouraging to see that

1492
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,480
people are going out and protesting and

1493
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,559
if anything they're protesting more

1494
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,400
which is great that's a silver lining to

1495
00:53:38,559 --> 00:53:43,040
the coronavirus pandemic

1496
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:45,280
but the spread of fake news how much of

1497
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,640
an issue is fake news and specifically

1498
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:49,280
facebook

1499
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:51,200
to what's happening with the situation

1500
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:55,280
in russia it's been both a positive and

1501
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:57,520
a negative what's your experience been

1502
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,800
oh it's really really a very great

1503
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:02,160
question because

1504
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:04,400
we uh try to check information with fake

1505
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:07,680
news about coronavirus

1506
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:11,200
and uh for uh for example where i have a

1507
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:14,399
lot of news from russia i mean

1508
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:17,520
new fake news from propaganda machine uh

1509
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:19,200
including uh fake news on facebook and

1510
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:21,680
other social media

1511
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,879
about very good condition of russian

1512
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,598
medicine

1513
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,359
and russian hospitals but it's not true

1514
00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:30,400
and ordinary activists

1515
00:54:27,359 --> 00:54:33,440
walk like volunteers and try to help for

1516
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:36,720
ordinary hospitals and for example

1517
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:40,559
a trade union uh doctor alliance

1518
00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:43,919
uh try to help for hospital and try

1519
00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:46,240
uh to attract attention of a society

1520
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,040
for this problem on hospitals on russian

1521
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:49,680
hospitals but

1522
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:52,079
because unfortunately putin regime to

1523
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:55,440
spend money for propaganda machine

1524
00:54:52,079 --> 00:54:59,119
for wars uh for example against ukraine

1525
00:54:55,440 --> 00:55:01,200
and for other disgusting needs but

1526
00:54:59,119 --> 00:55:03,680
we don't have a normal budget for

1527
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:06,078
medicine needs for education

1528
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,799
and of course result of that disgusting

1529
00:55:06,079 --> 00:55:09,839
policy

1530
00:55:06,799 --> 00:55:12,160
is a horrible situation with hospitals

1531
00:55:09,839 --> 00:55:13,279
and activists try to share information

1532
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,200
about that but

1533
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,920
fake news to publish information it's

1534
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:20,078
not true it's very good condition of

1535
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:25,040
hospitals and we have a

1536
00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:25,040
very good result of our uh

1537
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:33,040
of our process uh on our hospitals

1538
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:36,240
but in reality it's not true and uh

1539
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:38,400
we have a lot of cases arrested of

1540
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:41,839
activists who only try

1541
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:45,440
uh to bring uh masks and

1542
00:55:41,839 --> 00:55:48,558
some equipment to hospitals and

1543
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,839
uh and some of activists who try to

1544
00:55:48,559 --> 00:55:52,960
share information

1545
00:55:49,839 --> 00:55:55,520
about real situations hospital

1546
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,960
hospitals uh to have a problem with

1547
00:55:55,520 --> 00:56:00,079
police now

1548
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:01,359
and of course it's not only problem with

1549
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:04,720
fake news

1550
00:56:01,359 --> 00:56:05,119
we have a problem with impact from sight

1551
00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:08,240
of

1552
00:56:05,119 --> 00:56:09,920
putin authorities to activists but it's

1553
00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:12,479
really fantastic news

1554
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,480
that people don't stop the activity they

1555
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:16,559
continue to

1556
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,520
to help for other people's as they

1557
00:56:16,559 --> 00:56:21,040
continue

1558
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:23,839
to uh uh to bring to hospitals masks

1559
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,720
and other equipment and continue this

1560
00:56:23,839 --> 00:56:26,960
volunteers

1561
00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:28,640
activity it's it's really a very

1562
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:32,000
inspiring trend i think

1563
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:34,640
and people don't uh afraid putin's

1564
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,960
authorities and continues their activity

1565
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:39,040
and it's really very great news from

1566
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:41,520
russia

1567
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,400
that's i mean that's really inspiring

1568
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,319
and incredible

1569
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,240
and if jenny i mean we haven't been able

1570
00:56:44,319 --> 00:56:47,920
to speak to you for very long but i'm so

1571
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:48,879
happy that we could have you even for

1572
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,720
two minutes

1573
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,960
i've said it to you before and i'll just

1574
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:55,040
say it's well to the audience i mean

1575
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,640
if jenny has so much knowledge about

1576
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,079
russia i mean russia is a very big

1577
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,078
country and it's it's a

1578
00:56:58,079 --> 00:57:02,640
it's a very complicated country too but

1579
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:05,200
every time i speak to her despite

1580
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:06,640
the the tremendous attacks that she

1581
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,640
herself has faced

1582
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:10,240
she always leaves me feeling so hopeful

1583
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,279
because there really is something in

1584
00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:13,279
people power

1585
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,960
and the fact that people will not be

1586
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,480
silenced and that you know you remember

1587
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:19,200
that it is our voice

1588
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,839
so as we're very strapped for time here

1589
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,680
i would just

1590
00:57:19,839 --> 00:57:24,240
encourage all of you to really visit her

1591
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:27,040
website activatica.org

1592
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,959
and hear more about her and and i know

1593
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,640
she'd be willing to speak to all of you

1594
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,680
but evgenia thank you so much for

1595
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:37,118
joining us i do believe we are going to

1596
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:39,359
uh link you now with a video from ariel

1597
00:57:37,119 --> 00:57:41,040
who also couldn't join us today but was

1598
00:57:39,359 --> 00:57:42,799
another voice that we wanted

1599
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,160
and at least for the audience watching

1600
00:57:42,799 --> 00:57:45,440
you will have heard a little snippet

1601
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,040
from each of them

1602
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,960
and then you know they're all available

1603
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,240
to speak to you afterwards so thank you

1604
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:53,440
evgenya and

1605
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:56,319
here is arya

1606
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:57,760
thank you my name is i am doctor in

1607
00:57:56,319 --> 00:58:00,240
biological science

1608
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:01,200
but for the cuban regimen i am only one

1609
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:04,000
farmer

1610
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:06,000
so right now i have a corrupt my

1611
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,280
computer so for that reason i cannot

1612
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,480
participated

1613
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:13,040
in in real time

1614
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,319
in that kind of workshop so then i want

1615
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:18,079
to speak

1616
00:58:14,319 --> 00:58:21,040
about one of the about one of

1617
00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:23,520
my main topics into the environmental

1618
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:27,520
activities so

1619
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:30,000
i from 1998 i started to work

1620
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,960
with the turtle in particular with the

1621
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,640
biological

1622
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:36,079
on a conservation topic of that kind of

1623
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:40,558
marine resource

1624
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:43,839
as a university student so from 2001

1625
00:58:40,559 --> 00:58:46,130
i started to work as a professional

1626
00:58:43,839 --> 00:58:47,599
with that kind of market research

1627
00:58:46,130 --> 00:58:49,440
[Music]

1628
00:58:47,599 --> 00:58:51,040
trying to look in the information about

1629
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:54,960
one special topic

1630
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:58,160
the cuban regiment was the last country

1631
00:58:54,960 --> 00:59:01,200
that that feature in legal way

1632
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:02,879
that kind of marine research and the

1633
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:05,839
goal of that kind of feature

1634
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,640
was to make one international trade to

1635
00:59:05,839 --> 00:59:08,640
japan

1636
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,720
to sell the toilet virtual corporate

1637
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:13,839
shelves so then

1638
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:16,720
my goal was as a research to know the

1639
00:59:13,839 --> 00:59:17,200
genetic composition of the future stock

1640
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,720
then

1641
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,839
the idea for the cuban regime was to

1642
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,240
justify

1643
00:59:21,839 --> 00:59:25,520
that the comp the generic composition of

1644
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:28,799
the future stock

1645
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:32,640
belong to the hawksville that born

1646
00:59:28,799 --> 00:59:36,000
in the cuban beaches but nevertheless

1647
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:37,520
our result were totally different so the

1648
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:41,040
majority of the

1649
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:43,040
is a foxfield that the cuban regiment

1650
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:46,240
feature in legal way

1651
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:49,599
born in beaches from mexican gulf

1652
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:51,680
and also in mona island puerto rico

1653
00:59:49,599 --> 00:59:53,760
so then when i published together with

1654
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:55,759
my students all those we sold

1655
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:57,040
in one international congress from

1656
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,599
mexico

1657
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:01,119
then the cuban regime decided to attack

1658
00:59:59,599 --> 01:00:03,440
me for the second time

1659
01:00:01,119 --> 01:00:05,200
and then they kept me out from havana

1660
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,559
university and they prohibited me to

1661
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:09,598
continue working with

1662
01:00:06,559 --> 01:00:12,319
portal but at the same time at least

1663
01:00:09,599 --> 01:00:14,480
they stop it for full-time the legal

1664
01:00:12,319 --> 01:00:17,759
featuring of that kind of marine

1665
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:20,319
research in my country

1666
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:22,240
although that i could not continue

1667
01:00:20,319 --> 01:00:24,400
working

1668
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:26,078
knowing more about the biologies on the

1669
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:26,960
conservation of that kind of marine

1670
01:00:26,079 --> 01:00:29,520
research

1671
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,760
the illegal fishery in my country

1672
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,520
continued so i tried to make several

1673
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,839
efforts to control

1674
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,440
and to know the real cause of that kind

1675
01:00:35,839 --> 01:00:40,078
of illegal feature

1676
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,720
and then i knew that the majority of the

1677
01:00:40,079 --> 01:00:43,599
fisherman

1678
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,640
settlement they did not have enough food

1679
01:00:43,599 --> 01:00:47,680
for to eat

1680
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:51,598
so then one another problem came

1681
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:53,598
so how i i felt at that time without

1682
01:00:51,599 --> 01:00:56,319
many

1683
01:00:53,599 --> 01:00:57,200
resources to manage that kind of problem

1684
01:00:56,319 --> 01:01:00,400
because how

1685
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:02,240
i could say to the featuring families

1686
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:04,400
you cannot fish that kind of animal

1687
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,240
because it's in the danger of extinction

1688
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,599
and you don't have enough food for to

1689
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,919
eat so then

1690
01:01:07,599 --> 01:01:10,799
was a big problem for us and on the

1691
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:13,599
other hand

1692
01:01:10,799 --> 01:01:14,640
the most interesting thing was that the

1693
01:01:13,599 --> 01:01:18,400
fishermen

1694
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:21,839
they they made that kind of illegal

1695
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:22,880
activity not only for to eat for

1696
01:01:21,839 --> 01:01:25,599
survival

1697
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,559
the goal was to sell the meat and the

1698
01:01:25,599 --> 01:01:29,119
purple shell

1699
01:01:26,559 --> 01:01:30,000
to the tourism that visited their

1700
01:01:29,119 --> 01:01:33,599
country

1701
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:34,319
and so then in i i knew that the real

1702
01:01:33,599 --> 01:01:37,119
problem was

1703
01:01:34,319 --> 01:01:38,000
not to to to eat it was not to take me

1704
01:01:37,119 --> 01:01:40,799
for to eat

1705
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:42,559
or to take eggs for to eat was to obtain

1706
01:01:40,799 --> 01:01:45,040
money for to buy juices

1707
01:01:42,559 --> 01:01:46,000
for to buy dresses for to buy another

1708
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:49,839
kind of food

1709
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:54,000
to survive also to repay the houses

1710
01:01:49,839 --> 01:01:56,960
so then the problem became in more deep

1711
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,920
deep dipped until now why because i

1712
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:01,039
could not do so

1713
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:03,520
much as a researcher because first the

1714
01:02:01,039 --> 01:02:06,640
cuban dictatorship decided to stop

1715
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:10,079
my research activities and then i became

1716
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:12,558
farmer and then on the other hand uh

1717
01:02:10,079 --> 01:02:14,160
that became one real problem for the

1718
01:02:12,559 --> 01:02:16,799
cuban government so the cuban

1719
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:18,160
staff from the government will give

1720
01:02:16,799 --> 01:02:20,319
another way to survive

1721
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,920
to that kind of people but the cuban

1722
01:02:20,319 --> 01:02:24,720
regiment always

1723
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,520
plays in double phase so they try to

1724
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,000
show

1725
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:29,599
one phase about the conservation of the

1726
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:32,079
environment to the tourism

1727
01:02:29,599 --> 01:02:33,760
and to the european countries but on the

1728
01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:37,680
other phase they tried

1729
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:38,319
to obtain money and to preach the local

1730
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:41,279
people

1731
01:02:38,319 --> 01:02:43,279
so that was the main topic that i that i

1732
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:43,680
got it so the second topic i don't know

1733
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:46,480
if i

1734
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:48,319
will have time for to speak that is the

1735
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:51,440
problem that i got

1736
01:02:48,319 --> 01:02:53,440
when i tried to make my bio farm in one

1737
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,520
national park from the western part of

1738
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,839
cuba that the name is vignales

1739
01:02:55,520 --> 01:03:00,319
and then i tried to make the bioform on

1740
01:02:57,839 --> 01:03:03,520
the cuban dictatorship put me in jail

1741
01:03:00,319 --> 01:03:06,799
for one year only because i try

1742
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:08,720
to to protect the natural resource

1743
01:03:06,799 --> 01:03:10,400
in combination with the sustainable

1744
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,480
management of the

1745
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,839
animals and plants for that kind of

1746
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,960
national park

1747
01:03:13,839 --> 01:03:18,480
so how i could not continue working as a

1748
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:22,079
researcher in my country

1749
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:24,480
in cuba i decided to become in farmer

1750
01:03:22,079 --> 01:03:26,640
because farmer is like the basis on the

1751
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,760
pyramids in the social pyramid of my

1752
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:30,400
country no one

1753
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,119
want to do no one wants to become

1754
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,000
informer

1755
01:03:31,119 --> 01:03:35,680
is to consider that the basic job

1756
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:39,119
without any kind of

1757
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:40,960
a salary or remuneration from the cuban

1758
01:03:39,119 --> 01:03:42,480
government and so in the socialism

1759
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:46,000
system normally

1760
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:47,440
the private properties does not exist so

1761
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:50,559
always will depend

1762
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:53,119
uh of the government for to sell for to

1763
01:03:50,559 --> 01:03:55,520
buy to acquire tools for the work

1764
01:03:53,119 --> 01:03:56,319
but anyway i decided to make the bio

1765
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:59,680
farm

1766
01:03:56,319 --> 01:04:02,240
and i started to to to make one

1767
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,680
smart plant nursery to preserve the

1768
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:07,439
genetic background of one

1769
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:10,000
spiritual a a timber tree so the name is

1770
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,720
mahogany so the scientific name suetanya

1771
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:13,359
mahavoni

1772
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:14,160
is considered like the best wood in the

1773
01:04:13,359 --> 01:04:17,839
world

1774
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:21,279
and the main wild population

1775
01:04:17,839 --> 01:04:24,480
were in my country but nowadays

1776
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:26,319
you cannot find really so many

1777
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:28,400
individual mature individual

1778
01:04:26,319 --> 01:04:30,880
individuals in the food because the

1779
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,920
majority of the local farmers and also

1780
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,640
the government

1781
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:37,119
logging for to sell the food then i

1782
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:41,200
tried to make that kind of bio form

1783
01:04:37,119 --> 01:04:44,960
and then i knew also that the

1784
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:48,319
some a kind of farmer started to breed

1785
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:49,920
while pig using the natural resource

1786
01:04:48,319 --> 01:04:52,160
from the national park

1787
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,960
and then when i showed to the local

1788
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,960
authority

1789
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,079
what was happening in a real way in the

1790
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,079
national park

1791
01:04:56,079 --> 01:04:59,920
they started to attack me using the

1792
01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:02,960
political police

1793
01:04:59,920 --> 01:05:04,400
against for the second time and then one

1794
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:07,920
day they came to my

1795
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,319
a farm and i was making one alive fence

1796
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,720
so

1797
01:05:08,319 --> 01:05:11,759
using trunk alive strong for to

1798
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:14,959
propagate it

1799
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:17,440
some special of trees and they

1800
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:18,400
say that i did not have a mitchell for

1801
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,520
to do that

1802
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:24,640
and they put me in prison for one year

1803
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:28,160
so a sense that at that moment i have

1804
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:31,200
one a handy a rustic handy

1805
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:32,960
i could record the conversation in

1806
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:36,240
between the political police

1807
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:37,599
and myself and then thanks to that kind

1808
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:39,680
of record

1809
01:05:37,599 --> 01:05:41,760
can use for the international

1810
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:44,399
communities of environmental

1811
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:46,240
activities to to present the cuban

1812
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:48,640
government for to give me the

1813
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:50,479
the freedom so the cuban government

1814
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:52,879
already never gave me

1815
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,599
that kind of condition so they put me

1816
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:56,799
out

1817
01:05:53,599 --> 01:06:00,559
to the prison after one hunger and first

1818
01:05:56,799 --> 01:06:02,960
strike for more than 16 days and

1819
01:06:00,559 --> 01:06:05,200
they put me out to the prison with one

1820
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:07,839
special status that was

1821
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,879
a extravagant license so that is a

1822
01:06:07,839 --> 01:06:11,038
little bit crazy

1823
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,920
but extra penalizing in the communist

1824
01:06:11,039 --> 01:06:14,880
system

1825
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:16,799
means that you can continue in jail but

1826
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:19,039
in your house so you cannot move you

1827
01:06:16,799 --> 01:06:20,640
cannot do nothing without any permission

1828
01:06:19,039 --> 01:06:22,480
and of course you cannot continue

1829
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:25,920
working as a farmer of

1830
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:28,400
as a real profession thanks for that

1831
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:30,240
opportunity for communicating with you

1832
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:32,319
and to try to explain

1833
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:40,720
the situation of my country and in

1834
01:06:32,319 --> 01:06:40,720
particular my personal