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[Music]

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so we'll be talking about no permissions

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needed I am Aditi I've been already

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introduced I'll just skip my interest

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lies and security privacy and techno

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sociology which is basically impact of

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tech on humans and Society overall

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um

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so diving directly into the topic before

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beginning I would like to have a show of

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hands of how many people have used

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Android ever or hacked Android yeah all

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of us I think all of us are kind of

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familiar with Android which kind of

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makes sense because you're here

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um so if you have you would have seen

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these permission Alex right like one

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appears when you're installing the app

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where the app asks you a bunch of

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permissions then you can go to settings

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and see what all Apple missions have

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been there and then third one is a newly

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introduced one which I really like where

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you can decide whether you want to give

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permission throughout the time of when

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you're using the app or also in the

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background and stuff like that uh but we

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are here to demystify as to what

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permissions actually mean in Android

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world right so I'll try to do that in

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four simple steps

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um the first part of it is why are you

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shown this a screen so if you're trying

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to code an Android app suppose you're

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trying to code a weather app and it

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needs your location permission when you

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add the function chain of get

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geocoordinates or get whatever Android

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Studio asks you to add this particular

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permission in your Android manifest file

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so in Android there is

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androidmanifest.xml which is kind of the

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Central File where all the permissions

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are listed so they are shown up here

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it's a user's permission brackets so all

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the permissions that the app would be

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needing would be listed in here so that

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is the first part the app developer

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defining that this is the set of

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permission I I need in order for my app

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to work and when you install Android

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picks up the same set and shows you out

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in the dialog box that we just saw so

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that is the first part the other part is

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what happens in Android world right so

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if you have an app how Android actually

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treats that app

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so in Android every app has a package

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name right and the funny part is it's

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not not even unique right like uh

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com.android.chrome identifies Chrome app

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but you can as well create an app with

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that package name although it would not

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install on your device if Chrome already

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exists but yeah that that loophole is

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there so for Android it identifies every

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app with the package name and the

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interesting bit here is the user ID so

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it assigns a particular user ID to the

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app and it has this set of permissions

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listed to the app uh so where can you

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find the central file it is Data System

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slash packages.xml so you need to be

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root or if you're an emulator you can do

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ADB root and then you can pull this file

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out and you can see all the packages all

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the apps which are in Android

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um and all the permissions associated

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with that app

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so now you hear you see that it is just

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list of strings right like Android

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permission or device power what does

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this string exactly mean in OS world

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so the next bit I'll show is really

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interesting file which kind of does this

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mapping of the string with a group ID

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Now Android is nothing but Linux right

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and uids and group IDs kind of make

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sense to us because we are familiar with

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it in Linux world so you'll see that

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each permission is essentially related

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to a group ID here for example Bluetooth

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admin has a group ID net BT admin and

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then there is a separate file which does

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the mapping of group ID with the

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corresponding group group code which is

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a numeric value

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so in Linux uids are used to separate

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users because Linux was designed to be a

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multi-user OS so you had uid so that

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users can not interfere with each of

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their spaces you do not have access to

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access accessory sources of other user

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Android kind of repurpose the same logic

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for apps so every app basically has its

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own uid and a set of permissions which

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are listed as gids

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so that is in brief how permissions

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actually work in kernel land in Android

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and usually whenever an app starts

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Android has Dalvik VM which it's used

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uses to run Java or kotlin code whenever

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you launch an app it does not create the

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VM it rather focus of a process from

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zygot so zygote is a central process

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which has root access it has all the

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loaded libraries that your app needs in

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order to perform and whenever you launch

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an app basically it just folks out of

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that thread so zygod has everything and

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at the time of working it assigns a set

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of group IDs that we just talked about

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so that is the permissions that the app

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would have and capabilities

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and also a different uid so at the time

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of specialization app basically becomes

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its own app like it's the privilege is

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reduced and it is reduced to the group

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IDs to the permissions that the app

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asked for so that is what happens and uh

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this book Android security internals I

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find it really interesting by Nicole he

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has detailed a lot more into what

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happens exactly uh in Android kernel and

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how security is insured

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so having talked about that what are

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permissions can an app declare so I was

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interested interested in seeing what our

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permissions are there on Android system

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and to do that you can simply

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um try doing PM list permissions Dash F

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which will list all the permissions on

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your device now note that not all

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permissions are same across all the

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devices because apps can also create

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their own custom permissions which show

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up

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um and whenever you see in any

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permission here there would be a

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permission a package sometimes also give

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the description but the interesting bit

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here is the protection level

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so the prediction level can be normal

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dangerous privilege signature or

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privilege

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we'll talk about the normal and

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dangerous one more so normal is a set of

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permissions

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taking a step back Android introduce

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permissions to accept to limit access

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right like you cannot access resources

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like location without declaring a

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permission now the permissions that fall

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under normal are the ones that

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developers need to Define and Android

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manifest but they do not ask they do not

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need user intervention so you can as

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well Define normal permissions but it

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would not be shown in a prompt to user

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right they'll just stay there

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um dangerous are the ones like location

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for which you are shown prompt for and

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then there are other like signature or

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signature or system uh these are usually

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very restricted permissions you cannot

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not every app can Define it and there

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are usually signatures involved or the

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app needs to be in system so usually

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system apps or custom apps of the oems

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use those kind of permissions

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uh but I was not interested in data

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collected after defining this permission

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I was interested in data collected

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without defining any permission on

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Android

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so I created an app I called it Jon Snow

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app uh you know nothing and this is the

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Android manifest of that app so you see

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that there is no user's permission here

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like it's not using any permission and

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that was the whole idea that without

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using any permission what all

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information can I extract

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so I'll just show the app right now

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uh so you can see that it's like no

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permissions requested it's grayed out

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a rare occasion on Android

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and when I say what do you know

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I'll give you the basic details like

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manufacturer model uh supported 32-bit

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stuff like that

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and then I asked it and a hardware

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details fingerprints and stuff like that

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and it also shows you whether you know

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configurations like ADB is enabled or

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not

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um

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here USB Mass Storage Wi-Fi is on or not

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airplane mode is on or not data roaming

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boot count HTTP proxy a bunch of system

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settings essentially

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so it was okay it was interesting some

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information about my system which is

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fine it also tells you settings which

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are very personal to you like

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accessibility settings right uh

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inversion of colors or parental controls

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on your device whether they're

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established or not whether you have

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touch exploration or not uh most

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interestingly it was also able to know

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all the apps that I'm using right so um

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the names of the apps banking apps or

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any other things

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and this bit is the favorite one because

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it is also able to gather information

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which is kind of not like does it

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doesn't need that kind of information so

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information like when is your wake-up

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alarm set up to so I'll be waking up in

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six hours I would know any app would

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know that or whether I'm listening to a

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song or not based on you know the audio

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status uh microphone is mute or not

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battery is charging or not uh clipboard

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what is the last thing you copied right

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so if you forwarded a chat from your

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loved one to someone else this app which

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has no permission sitting on your device

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will be able to read that message or any

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link that you shared anything that you

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copied basically and along with that app

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widget so whatever widgets you installed

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on your mobile phones other than the

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apps

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so it was able to collect all this

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information and honestly it was just a

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first go so I went to Android studio and

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like Global setting system settings and

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I tried to access everything that

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Android Studio was letting me access

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without finding a permission and this

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was what I was able to get in the first

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go

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and why does it matter so I think and

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this is a kind of broader problem in

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privacy that we say that these are data

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points and these are just system

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settings and you know we need it but if

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you put a human behind these data points

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you can easily make inferences about

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someone so if you have like apps you use

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there has been research around that that

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just on the basis of the apps you use

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you can find out the gender of a person

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or ethnicity or age group or addictions

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health problems if you're using banking

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apps they will know which bank your

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money goes into lifestyle apps where do

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you shop your clothes from and stuff

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like that because there's an app for

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everything so appnium kind of indicates

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your preference or your choice in life

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similarly device controls right

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accessibility health conditions whether

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you're a child or not these can be shown

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based on whether your parental controls

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are established or not clipboard data

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Bluetooth on right so there are all

280
00:10:02,700 --> 00:10:05,940
these uh things and the most importantly

281
00:10:05,940 --> 00:10:07,680
is that all this set of information

282
00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:10,440
since it's so much can be easily used to

283
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,000
do device fingerprinting so there has

284
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,800
been talks around

285
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,600
um apps basically using a thing called

286
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,279
advertising ID so they collect

287
00:10:17,279 --> 00:10:19,260
everything from your whatever you are

288
00:10:19,260 --> 00:10:20,519
performing on the app they collect that

289
00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:22,860
information they add a unique identifier

290
00:10:22,860 --> 00:10:24,720
which can profile you which is

291
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,339
advertising ID and it sends it over to

292
00:10:26,339 --> 00:10:27,839
advertising server so that is how they

293
00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:31,320
maintain a profile of you right and the

294
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,120
talks around advertising ID was that

295
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,220
users should be able or given the right

296
00:10:35,220 --> 00:10:37,620
to remove that link of profiling and the

297
00:10:37,620 --> 00:10:40,140
ID used to identify that person but that

298
00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:42,240
link does not hold like that choice is

299
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:43,740
no more there when your device can be so

300
00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:45,660
easily fingerprinted and for browser

301
00:10:45,660 --> 00:10:47,279
fingerprinting we still have had more

302
00:10:47,279 --> 00:10:49,440
discussions but for Android device

303
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:50,700
fingerprinting there has been no

304
00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:53,279
solution as such for now

305
00:10:53,279 --> 00:10:54,600
um other challenges that I see in

306
00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,700
existing permission model is permission

307
00:10:56,700 --> 00:10:59,100
redaligation

308
00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:01,680
in Android since it is the because of

309
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,300
the rich functionality it offers it

310
00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:05,220
allows for IPC which is inter-process

311
00:11:05,220 --> 00:11:06,959
communication so it can easily happen

312
00:11:06,959 --> 00:11:09,360
that app is taking location permission a

313
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,339
b is taking Gallery permission and then

314
00:11:11,339 --> 00:11:12,480
both of them are talking to each other

315
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,480
through like custom content Uris or

316
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:16,920
other ways in which Android allows

317
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,100
information to be accessed across apps

318
00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:22,500
and I did a little bit of experiment I

319
00:11:22,500 --> 00:11:24,360
would not go in deep because we have

320
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,240
very less minutes here but what I tried

321
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,279
to do was can I find which app is

322
00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:30,540
talking to which app on my Android

323
00:11:30,540 --> 00:11:33,180
device and I was able to do that by

324
00:11:33,180 --> 00:11:35,040
hooking into the looking into the binder

325
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,680
calls so Android allows for IPC through

326
00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:39,779
binder and binder does a lot of logging

327
00:11:39,779 --> 00:11:41,700
so for every process that keeps process

328
00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:43,380
logs which get erased after some time

329
00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:45,300
and those logs have the information of

330
00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:48,300
whether which process was interacted to

331
00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:50,279
from this process so I kind of try to

332
00:11:50,279 --> 00:11:53,459
use that log and make a mapping so

333
00:11:53,459 --> 00:11:55,500
there's a script which you can share for

334
00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:57,060
people who are interested so you can

335
00:11:57,060 --> 00:11:58,260
know which apps are talking on your

336
00:11:58,260 --> 00:12:01,560
device but do not go more in detail here

337
00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,019
let's talk about some other stuff so

338
00:12:04,019 --> 00:12:07,440
what else is problematic then there's a

339
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:08,820
thing called common libraries right so

340
00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:10,860
you use libraries for crash dumb

341
00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:12,600
collection you use libraries for logging

342
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,639
and those libraries whenever they are

343
00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:16,139
integrated they have the same kind of

344
00:12:16,139 --> 00:12:18,180
access that the app has so whatever

345
00:12:18,180 --> 00:12:20,040
permissions the app has access to the

346
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,720
library also has and the library is a

347
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,339
third party thing altogether right so

348
00:12:23,339 --> 00:12:25,500
they can take again location from one

349
00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:27,000
app and that library is part of another

350
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,680
app so it can take images from the other

351
00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:33,720
app and basically collect and file you

352
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,839
uh how many minutes are left I'm sorry

353
00:12:36,839 --> 00:12:38,459
oh thank you

354
00:12:38,459 --> 00:12:39,720
okay

355
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,120
so uh that is something which is

356
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,519
happening right like Library collecting

357
00:12:44,519 --> 00:12:46,260
data or apps interacting with each other

358
00:12:46,260 --> 00:12:47,519
and these are active problems which

359
00:12:47,519 --> 00:12:49,440
Android is trying to figure out how to

360
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,540
solve as a platform but I think there

361
00:12:51,540 --> 00:12:53,279
are broader conceptual concerns as well

362
00:12:53,279 --> 00:12:55,680
when it comes to privacy

363
00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:56,399
um

364
00:12:56,399 --> 00:12:58,860
for example scoping of data and

365
00:12:58,860 --> 00:13:01,139
granularized controls

366
00:13:01,139 --> 00:13:03,660
um let's take this case allow SMS

367
00:13:03,660 --> 00:13:06,000
messaging to send and view SMS message

368
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,100
right so when you give this SMS Read

369
00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:10,800
permission it can basically read any SMS

370
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,660
that comes to you and the thing that I

371
00:13:12,660 --> 00:13:15,360
find problematic in this model is that

372
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,279
you're kind of giving access to the

373
00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:18,899
storage so you when you allow the

374
00:13:18,899 --> 00:13:20,339
permission you basically give the keys

375
00:13:20,339 --> 00:13:22,200
to your storage but you do not know what

376
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:23,760
will end up in your storage right like

377
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,260
what kind of SMS is it holding

378
00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:27,120
confidential information is there a

379
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:28,980
choice in which we can restrict that no

380
00:13:28,980 --> 00:13:31,560
only SMS from now on or the OTP that

381
00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:33,180
your app needs you should only read that

382
00:13:33,180 --> 00:13:35,220
we cannot Define that choice right so

383
00:13:35,220 --> 00:13:36,660
today when you give lead SMS just

384
00:13:36,660 --> 00:13:38,700
because an app needs to read an OTP you

385
00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:40,920
basically expose the whole SMS stack so

386
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,899
it can contain any SMS it can contain

387
00:13:42,899 --> 00:13:45,060
any pii and that is essentially

388
00:13:45,060 --> 00:13:46,380
additional information that you're

389
00:13:46,380 --> 00:13:48,959
giving off which you don't need to

390
00:13:48,959 --> 00:13:50,519
essentially but we don't have a choice

391
00:13:50,519 --> 00:13:51,959
to restrict that

392
00:13:51,959 --> 00:13:53,760
uh another interesting thing is what

393
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,380
happens to my previously collected data

394
00:13:55,380 --> 00:13:57,420
if I revoke permission so the revoke

395
00:13:57,420 --> 00:13:59,100
permission flow itself is not very well

396
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:01,320
designed you can go and say that do not

397
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,779
I don't give this permission anymore but

398
00:14:03,779 --> 00:14:06,060
that revocation how is it reflected on

399
00:14:06,060 --> 00:14:07,500
server side have people deleted your

400
00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:09,779
data because you do not want them to use

401
00:14:09,779 --> 00:14:11,940
it anymore that flow is again not there

402
00:14:11,940 --> 00:14:14,459
happening

403
00:14:14,459 --> 00:14:16,380
um and then this is a really interesting

404
00:14:16,380 --> 00:14:18,540
thing that talking about data and it's

405
00:14:18,540 --> 00:14:20,100
not related to Android it's just in

406
00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,139
privacy in general whenever you share

407
00:14:22,139 --> 00:14:24,300
information you do not share just your

408
00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:26,880
information right so if you are sharing

409
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:28,740
suppose you're giving excess of your

410
00:14:28,740 --> 00:14:30,540
gallery your gallery will not hold just

411
00:14:30,540 --> 00:14:32,339
your pictures you're making decision for

412
00:14:32,339 --> 00:14:34,440
other people in your circle whose

413
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,660
pictures are also there in your gallery

414
00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:39,060
and it is interesting it is obviously

415
00:14:39,060 --> 00:14:41,639
complex to solve but

416
00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:43,380
um it kind of gives you like if you

417
00:14:43,380 --> 00:14:44,579
think about the question of can you

418
00:14:44,579 --> 00:14:46,980
actually control uh what amount of your

419
00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:49,320
personal information goes online today

420
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,139
the answer is very difficult you cannot

421
00:14:52,139 --> 00:14:55,620
in a way because if you just talk about

422
00:14:55,620 --> 00:14:58,079
um say contacts for example so let's say

423
00:14:58,079 --> 00:15:01,980
Alice pop and Carol are here in MCH 2022

424
00:15:01,980 --> 00:15:05,279
and they Alice shared the contact to Bob

425
00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:09,540
uh so that they can connect but later on

426
00:15:09,540 --> 00:15:12,120
Bob happens to have a crowdsourcing app

427
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,519
and that contact got uploaded onto the

428
00:15:14,519 --> 00:15:15,300
cloud

429
00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:17,820
the next day Alice found out that hey my

430
00:15:17,820 --> 00:15:19,440
contact is in there and I do not like it

431
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,060
so she raised a request and said that

432
00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:23,699
please take my contact off RPI off the

433
00:15:23,699 --> 00:15:25,680
cloud and they might entertain that

434
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,600
request and take it off but then the

435
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,279
data which has already left Alice's

436
00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:31,620
device has now reached a bob and Bob

437
00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:33,360
happened to share it with Carol and then

438
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,399
Carol happens the app and it again end

439
00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:37,459
up online so basically can you control

440
00:15:37,459 --> 00:15:39,720
the answer is no once you have given the

441
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,459
permission or once you have shared the

442
00:15:41,459 --> 00:15:43,740
basically it goes out of your out of

443
00:15:43,740 --> 00:15:45,360
your reach

444
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,220
so these are the kind of problems that

445
00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:49,560
we are seeing in Android and

446
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,440
um there are initiatives there are talks

447
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,779
around privacy sandbox in Android which

448
00:15:54,779 --> 00:15:57,720
can can potentially help us address it

449
00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,759
but there's no significant piece of work

450
00:15:59,759 --> 00:16:02,519
which answers the solution answers the

451
00:16:02,519 --> 00:16:03,839
question or provides a solution right

452
00:16:03,839 --> 00:16:05,399
now

453
00:16:05,399 --> 00:16:07,380
so these are some of the challenges by

454
00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:08,940
platform design and we have not even

455
00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:12,300
touched about the gdpr angle of it so we

456
00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:14,519
have not talked about apps which take

457
00:16:14,519 --> 00:16:16,380
permissions you have given permissions

458
00:16:16,380 --> 00:16:18,360
to them you have trusted them to handle

459
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,759
your data with respect but they end up

460
00:16:20,759 --> 00:16:23,759
exposing it right so there have been

461
00:16:23,759 --> 00:16:25,620
articles these are all fetched from

462
00:16:25,620 --> 00:16:27,180
wired and they keep on happening every

463
00:16:27,180 --> 00:16:28,560
month there are some article or the

464
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,660
other indicating that this app has

465
00:16:30,660 --> 00:16:33,060
leaked information out there and that

466
00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:34,920
kind of shows

467
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,860
at a resist back or an improper process

468
00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:40,860
system or policies around handling user

469
00:16:40,860 --> 00:16:42,540
data

470
00:16:42,540 --> 00:16:44,699
so I would just like you to take a

471
00:16:44,699 --> 00:16:46,860
minute now and think more info about to

472
00:16:46,860 --> 00:16:48,300
use it's stored and monitored online

473
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,339
like can you think about today sitting

474
00:16:50,339 --> 00:16:52,500
here what all information about you

475
00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:54,180
would be online

476
00:16:54,180 --> 00:16:57,839
and when I think about it I am I

477
00:16:57,839 --> 00:17:00,360
basically have no clue and I would not

478
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:01,980
and I would not blame you because no one

479
00:17:01,980 --> 00:17:03,300
asked you anyway right they just

480
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:05,520
uploaded it the permission models are

481
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,319
messed so you have a lot of information

482
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:09,179
whether you believe it or not about you

483
00:17:09,179 --> 00:17:12,000
online and you're being tracked and the

484
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,520
data is being used so that is all I had

485
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,380
to talk about thank you so much for

486
00:17:16,380 --> 00:17:21,079
attending attending the talk and yeah

487
00:17:22,919 --> 00:17:25,140
a DTU thank you so much

488
00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:26,760
um should we take some questions if you

489
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:27,900
have the time awesome there's two

490
00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:29,460
microphones in the middle folks uh for

491
00:17:29,460 --> 00:17:31,200
the last time let's uh have some

492
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,440
questions

493
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,200
okay Frontline please

494
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,419
does it work yes

495
00:17:39,419 --> 00:17:41,940
all right so far these pop-up messages

496
00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:44,640
I've considered them to either be a

497
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,080
placebo

498
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,320
or one of the ways Google tries to for

499
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,740
the the competition I'm a bit of a cynic

500
00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:54,419
with the uh

501
00:17:54,419 --> 00:17:58,260
these uh these pop-up questions

502
00:17:58,260 --> 00:17:59,820
so

503
00:17:59,820 --> 00:18:02,340
let's reverse it for a moment which of

504
00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:04,200
the pop-up questions you think actually

505
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,620
work

506
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,340
um can you explain what do you mean by

507
00:18:08,340 --> 00:18:09,780
pop-up questions

508
00:18:09,780 --> 00:18:11,760
the uh the pop-up questions for

509
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:12,900
permission

510
00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:15,780
the permission boxes okay so which

511
00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:19,340
happens work which ones work

512
00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:21,419
um so

513
00:18:21,419 --> 00:18:23,220
see the intention of having them in the

514
00:18:23,220 --> 00:18:24,720
first place was to provide some sort of

515
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,160
controls what we're talking about is

516
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,080
that they are not enough or there is a

517
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,600
lot which can be worked upon so we had

518
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,539
things like for example initially in

519
00:18:33,539 --> 00:18:35,340
order to access Wi-Fi anyone could have

520
00:18:35,340 --> 00:18:36,840
access to your Wi-Fi and then there was

521
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:38,820
a study that just based on the Wi-Fi

522
00:18:38,820 --> 00:18:40,860
someone can you know interpret the

523
00:18:40,860 --> 00:18:43,200
location of the person so they made that

524
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,120
in order to access Wi-Fi they added the

525
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,260
condition that you need to declare

526
00:18:46,260 --> 00:18:48,360
location permission right so they are

527
00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:49,919
taking his steps in the direction and I

528
00:18:49,919 --> 00:18:51,120
do believe that if I am giving location

529
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:52,559
permission it kind of gives me a little

530
00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:55,320
bit more like control around whether my

531
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,539
information is going out or not so I

532
00:18:57,539 --> 00:18:59,100
would say that the ones which are there

533
00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:01,440
do work in some capacity but they are

534
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,120
like still loopholes or things that need

535
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:04,919
to be addressed because even if you give

536
00:19:04,919 --> 00:19:06,360
the permission it is the first level of

537
00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:08,280
control that works but once the data has

538
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:09,960
gone out after that what happens to our

539
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,940
data there's a lot of you know scope of

540
00:19:11,940 --> 00:19:13,919
flowing data flowing across which you do

541
00:19:13,919 --> 00:19:16,440
not control so

542
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,720
all right and this is again the cynic in

543
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:23,660
me how much of this is uh intentional

544
00:19:28,020 --> 00:19:28,679
um

545
00:19:28,679 --> 00:19:31,380
it is intentional in a way that if

546
00:19:31,380 --> 00:19:34,140
you're using Google products uh the

547
00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:36,720
advertising model itself would need uh

548
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,580
you know in order to give you the right

549
00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:40,440
ads they need to profile you but at the

550
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,600
same time they claim that you can um you

551
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,280
know remove the advertising ID or you

552
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,200
have the rights to get off the system

553
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,539
not get personalized ads so the talks we

554
00:19:48,539 --> 00:19:49,620
are talking about like the things we're

555
00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:51,120
talking about here is how effective are

556
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:52,980
those controls right so the choice

557
00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:54,360
should be there the model is

558
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:56,460
unfortunately unfortunately advertising

559
00:19:56,460 --> 00:19:58,679
model so it is intentional of course but

560
00:19:58,679 --> 00:20:00,299
then do you have a choice to be off grid

561
00:20:00,299 --> 00:20:02,159
that that choice is something that we

562
00:20:02,159 --> 00:20:03,720
are discussing here

563
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,840
thank you

564
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,280
at first thank you for your talk of

565
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,539
course

566
00:20:09,539 --> 00:20:12,059
um I have too few quick questions first

567
00:20:12,059 --> 00:20:16,200
about the uh sandbox about the modern

568
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,780
Androids with the work profiles like

569
00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:21,059
there are different apps which are able

570
00:20:21,059 --> 00:20:23,580
to sandbox or use the work profile as a

571
00:20:23,580 --> 00:20:25,500
Sandbox I was wondering about the

572
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:27,720
different permission models like is

573
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,179
there is it as secure as they say or is

574
00:20:30,179 --> 00:20:32,520
there a data being shared between the

575
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,460
work profile and the normal personal

576
00:20:35,460 --> 00:20:37,620
profile

577
00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:39,720
um so I have not worked a lot with work

578
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,220
profiles they have introduced it

579
00:20:41,220 --> 00:20:43,200
recently but based on whatever I've read

580
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,440
in the documentation they have ways in

581
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,179
which you can share information across

582
00:20:48,179 --> 00:20:49,500
but again you have to be explicit about

583
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:50,700
and then they have some sort of

584
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:52,400
permission model around it

585
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,140
I think it's logically a separate space

586
00:20:55,140 --> 00:20:56,580
so they have kind of tried to create the

587
00:20:56,580 --> 00:20:58,320
same different users kind of stuff like

588
00:20:58,320 --> 00:20:59,760
you have in Linux another layer on top

589
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,440
of that that you cannot share resources

590
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,080
altogether and when I try to create in

591
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:05,580
an app and work profile it was actually

592
00:21:05,580 --> 00:21:07,860
difficult to have that communication so

593
00:21:07,860 --> 00:21:09,600
I would say that yeah it does work but

594
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:10,919
I've not done a thorough City to say

595
00:21:10,919 --> 00:21:13,200
yeah it's fully secure in the way they

596
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,419
are claiming it to be and one last

597
00:21:15,419 --> 00:21:17,880
question is about the global permission

598
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,299
model because some phones have also like

599
00:21:21,299 --> 00:21:23,820
you say like you you cannot declare a

600
00:21:23,820 --> 00:21:25,679
specific permission for the apps like

601
00:21:25,679 --> 00:21:27,240
which apps are installed on your device

602
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,640
but there are Global permissions like

603
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,860
allow apps to view other apps installs

604
00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:34,140
on the device if you turn it off no app

605
00:21:34,140 --> 00:21:37,559
will be able to uh to use it okay can

606
00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:39,720
you tell me some more about how these

607
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,299
are these vendor specific or are they

608
00:21:42,299 --> 00:21:47,039
built in hours or like how do they work

609
00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:50,220
um the global affirmations yeah I do not

610
00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:52,080
know how to do that's probably not the

611
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,760
official term but they are in the

612
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,640
settings app they are like setting allow

613
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,700
apps to view other apps on your device

614
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:02,220
or allow apps to know which other apps

615
00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:03,960
are installed on the device that's the

616
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,580
thing which doesn't have a app to app

617
00:22:05,580 --> 00:22:07,440
specific permission but you can turn it

618
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:08,400
off

619
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,220
oh okay uh so you think that a

620
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:12,900
particular permission is given to all

621
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:14,340
different apps and then you can select

622
00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:15,720
which apps have their permission or not

623
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,539
no it's more like there's one setting in

624
00:22:18,539 --> 00:22:21,720
the privacy app like turn off that apps

625
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,700
will be able to view apps insults on the

626
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:26,760
device and when it's off no app on the

627
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,980
device can view which other apps are in

628
00:22:28,980 --> 00:22:31,080
cells on the device oh okay so you're

629
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,820
talking about yeah yeah so the editor

630
00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:34,140
permission I think in after Android 10

631
00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:35,640
or Android 11 where you need to define

632
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,679
the permission in order to see other

633
00:22:37,679 --> 00:22:40,799
apps installed but this thing worked on

634
00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:42,780
the latest model as well and if the

635
00:22:42,780 --> 00:22:44,400
permission so there is some permission

636
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,440
around the extracting the code so from

637
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,000
an app you can also extract the code of

638
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,419
other app that is how usually uh apps

639
00:22:51,419 --> 00:22:53,340
scanning or code scanning tools work on

640
00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:55,559
device so they have added some

641
00:22:55,559 --> 00:22:56,700
restrictions around whether you can

642
00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:58,860
acquire the code the binaries of the

643
00:22:58,860 --> 00:23:00,480
other app through your app but the

644
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,860
package names or the name of the apps

645
00:23:01,860 --> 00:23:04,020
can be attained and and if there was a

646
00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:05,340
permission I think this one worked

647
00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:07,080
without permission but the permission

648
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,760
that they have added also normal so it

649
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,159
would not be taking users uh you know

650
00:23:11,159 --> 00:23:13,980
user won't be shown the prompt to allow

651
00:23:13,980 --> 00:23:16,320
let an app read other apps it will just

652
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,780
work in background I'll show it later

653
00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:21,059
yeah sure let's let's discuss it off

654
00:23:21,059 --> 00:23:22,799
after this

655
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:24,059
okay

656
00:23:24,059 --> 00:23:26,460
all right uh thank you for the very

657
00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:29,179
interesting talk

658
00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:33,380
is there any way you you could

659
00:23:33,380 --> 00:23:36,780
turn all those permissions off you show

660
00:23:36,780 --> 00:23:40,980
that that even an app which has no

661
00:23:40,980 --> 00:23:43,220
permissions at all

662
00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:46,260
has a lot of permissions anyway

663
00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:51,020
so could you turn off those permissions

664
00:23:51,020 --> 00:23:55,679
for example to delete them from an XML

665
00:23:55,679 --> 00:23:57,659
file

666
00:23:57,659 --> 00:23:58,500
um

667
00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:02,340
because I have no smartphone and that's

668
00:24:02,340 --> 00:24:04,620
yeah and that's and that's that that's

669
00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:07,140
of course a a good way not to be

670
00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:09,059
profiled that way

671
00:24:09,059 --> 00:24:11,940
but it becomes much more difficult uh

672
00:24:11,940 --> 00:24:14,520
time proceeds because uh everyone

673
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,799
expects you to have one

674
00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:17,820
so

675
00:24:17,820 --> 00:24:21,659
is there a way to uh to turn profiling

676
00:24:21,659 --> 00:24:23,220
off

677
00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:26,240
currently no

678
00:24:30,539 --> 00:24:32,640
thanks for your question though um maybe

679
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,140
in addition to the question of the

680
00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:36,120
previous gentleman if you use an open

681
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:37,919
source Android distribution instead of

682
00:24:37,919 --> 00:24:39,419
the one that comes pre-installed with

683
00:24:39,419 --> 00:24:41,279
your phone would that then solve these

684
00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:43,080
problems or at least improve them or

685
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,419
does that doesn't even matter

686
00:24:45,419 --> 00:24:47,700
I think it depends on if you want to

687
00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:49,500
play around with Android OS you can as

688
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:51,240
well create yourself like I have known

689
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,640
people taking care of the analytics

690
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,080
module or how the collection happens and

691
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,880
making changes somewhere there and

692
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,700
having a custom OS version like the

693
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:01,799
vanilla one but blocking certain things

694
00:25:01,799 --> 00:25:03,480
and then it's flashing that on their

695
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,279
mobile and using it to be more secure so

696
00:25:05,279 --> 00:25:07,320
I've seen people doing that uh if you're

697
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,080
using oems I think those are even more

698
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,840
bizarre because a lot of oems like oems

699
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,000
by OEM I mean Samsung and other other

700
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,100
device manufacturers they are coming up

701
00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,020
with pre-installed apps right so a bunch

702
00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:21,480
of them more than what you need or what

703
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,700
Android vanilla Android offers a lot of

704
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:25,860
them are like just custom apps which

705
00:25:25,860 --> 00:25:27,900
actually work or run at the system level

706
00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:29,340
itself seeing everything that you're

707
00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:31,440
doing on device so

708
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,940
um OEM would be like the least

709
00:25:32,940 --> 00:25:35,520
preference building your own Android OS

710
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,200
which will take a bunch of work but

711
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,940
building that and then customizing it is

712
00:25:38,940 --> 00:25:40,320
a good option if you are interested in

713
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:41,940
that you can do that that will

714
00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:43,559
definitely help or reduce it in some

715
00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:44,940
extent but again you have to be

716
00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:45,960
conscious of the apps that you're

717
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,000
installing right so if the apps itself

718
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,279
is collecting your information uh the

719
00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:51,659
change that you would be doing on kernel

720
00:25:51,659 --> 00:25:53,400
level is restrict them to collect the

721
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:54,779
information so if you're able to do that

722
00:25:54,779 --> 00:25:57,360
in the source code awesome uh if you're

723
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:58,679
not then you have to be conscious of the

724
00:25:58,679 --> 00:26:00,299
apps that you're installing all right

725
00:26:00,299 --> 00:26:02,659
thank you okay thank you

726
00:26:02,659 --> 00:26:05,760
uh hello thank you for the wonderful

727
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,820
talk and this is indeed quite scary to

728
00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:11,340
talk about uh to think about I was

729
00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:13,799
wondering uh what's your impression of

730
00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:17,880
the iOS model in that regard I maybe I

731
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,340
have missed the part but personally I've

732
00:26:20,340 --> 00:26:23,700
been quite impressed with like

733
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:26,039
occasional granularity of permissions

734
00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:28,260
that I have been asked for

735
00:26:28,260 --> 00:26:32,340
yeah so I guess iOS I would say

736
00:26:32,340 --> 00:26:32,940
um

737
00:26:32,940 --> 00:26:34,679
so there's a catch here right anyway if

738
00:26:34,679 --> 00:26:36,779
you're using Google or Apple the first

739
00:26:36,779 --> 00:26:37,919
thing you're doing as soon as you buy

740
00:26:37,919 --> 00:26:39,480
the devices is showing your confidence

741
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:40,860
in the company so they will be taking

742
00:26:40,860 --> 00:26:42,900
the data for sure but now the question

743
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:44,400
comes whether the data is just with the

744
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,020
company or is it going with advertisers

745
00:26:46,020 --> 00:26:48,419
or trackers so in iOS I found that they

746
00:26:48,419 --> 00:26:50,640
I think recently they introduced a

747
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,200
feature in their setting in privacy

748
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,380
settings uh to stop tracking from across

749
00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:57,120
all the apps and that has actually made

750
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,400
a lot of other companies who rely on

751
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,200
data really angry because they are not

752
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,820
able to get the right information to

753
00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:05,279
profile and do their work so they have

754
00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:06,840
added that and I actually respect them

755
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,460
for doing that they also have features

756
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:09,900
like for example in Instagram if you're

757
00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:11,400
sharing photo rather than giving access

758
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,559
to your whole Gallery they ask you to

759
00:27:13,559 --> 00:27:14,880
pick the photos so those are the kind of

760
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,440
controls which can potentially be there

761
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,179
in Android as well but we do not see

762
00:27:18,179 --> 00:27:19,919
them and Android much so my preference

763
00:27:19,919 --> 00:27:21,840
would be a little bit towards iOS not an

764
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,600
official statement though yeah

765
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,100
thank you

766
00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:28,440
I think the approach you're taking with

767
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,480
the uh the app that has no permissions

768
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,340
and seeing what it can do is interesting

769
00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:35,520
and it's shocking to see how many data

770
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,220
points you can still retrieve yeah

771
00:27:38,220 --> 00:27:40,200
um this is a bad point of course for

772
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,960
Androids compared to Linux but on the

773
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,600
other hand if you look at a normal Linux

774
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:46,740
distribution

775
00:27:46,740 --> 00:27:49,080
it tends to run all the apps as the same

776
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,059
user with access to all the same data

777
00:27:51,059 --> 00:27:54,179
now if you combined the two and take a

778
00:27:54,179 --> 00:27:56,399
Sandbox on the Linux in which you run

779
00:27:56,399 --> 00:27:58,860
each app in its own sandbox it would be

780
00:27:58,860 --> 00:28:00,299
interesting to see how much information

781
00:28:00,299 --> 00:28:03,419
your app would still report

782
00:28:03,419 --> 00:28:07,080
you might know you can run APK files on

783
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,899
your desktop or on other mobile

784
00:28:09,899 --> 00:28:12,659
operating systems that have a sort of

785
00:28:12,659 --> 00:28:15,539
emulation layer for running APK files it

786
00:28:15,539 --> 00:28:17,100
would be interesting to see how your app

787
00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:19,200
has in that

788
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,240
uh so you think you're talking I did not

789
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,980
fully understand it but is your question

790
00:28:22,980 --> 00:28:24,720
around application sandboxing and

791
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,880
whether that because Android does it in

792
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,159
some ways I'm trying to understand so

793
00:28:29,159 --> 00:28:32,159
instead of taking Androids take a Linux

794
00:28:32,159 --> 00:28:35,279
distribution yeah and a program like

795
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:38,480
Mbox which can run Android applications

796
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,580
take your application run it in there

797
00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:44,220
and see how much is still revealed

798
00:28:44,220 --> 00:28:46,320
because if you do that you have a

799
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,720
separate sandbox on Linux for every app

800
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,140
yeah I think yes uh that is interesting

801
00:28:52,140 --> 00:28:53,580
there are two questions two things that

802
00:28:53,580 --> 00:28:56,039
come to my mind right now here uh one is

803
00:28:56,039 --> 00:28:58,860
the way so Android had that as I got in

804
00:28:58,860 --> 00:29:00,539
forking off Zygarde because of memory

805
00:29:00,539 --> 00:29:02,760
optimization and like it's a smaller

806
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,980
chip they want to make it work in

807
00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:06,960
Pockets like it is a thing which will be

808
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,159
there and a lot of apps so they have

809
00:29:08,159 --> 00:29:10,200
done optimizations around that right so

810
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,820
it's like all the things that I am

811
00:29:11,820 --> 00:29:13,380
taking are kind of global common

812
00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:15,600
utilities basically the information that

813
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,220
I got from and it's already loaded in

814
00:29:17,220 --> 00:29:19,020
zygot and it's working on zygots you

815
00:29:19,020 --> 00:29:21,419
already have that permission right so if

816
00:29:21,419 --> 00:29:23,159
you are trying to completely sandbox it

817
00:29:23,159 --> 00:29:24,840
it might work but it might not be

818
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,760
performant or efficient or might

819
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,799
conflict with the initial ideologies of

820
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:31,140
why they chose it to be working another

821
00:29:31,140 --> 00:29:32,820
thing is in Android there's a lot of

822
00:29:32,820 --> 00:29:34,200
cross app interaction which is

823
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,000
intentional right like if you're going

824
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,260
to Whatsapp you want to add a contact

825
00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:39,480
you're talking to another app there and

826
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,679
that is intentional that offers Rich

827
00:29:40,679 --> 00:29:42,779
functionality uh and convenience to user

828
00:29:42,779 --> 00:29:46,260
so it cannot completely piece and box is

829
00:29:46,260 --> 00:29:48,419
still right so that is the problem okay

830
00:29:48,419 --> 00:29:51,000
thank you yeah okay I'm sorry but we are

831
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,220
out of time now so I'm afraid no more

832
00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:55,140
questions uh perhaps the DT would uh

833
00:29:55,140 --> 00:29:57,059
hang around afterwards maybe if folks

834
00:29:57,059 --> 00:29:58,380
have any others

835
00:29:58,380 --> 00:30:00,659
um thank you once again Aditi please for

836
00:30:00,659 --> 00:30:01,919
the last time everyone let's give it

837
00:30:01,919 --> 00:30:03,539
easy a big round of applause

838
00:30:03,539 --> 00:30:04,470
thank you

839
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:11,700
[Applause]