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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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good morning everybody it's nice to see

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so many people here

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uh as we draw towards the final sessions

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of this conference

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um um i'm going to be moderating a

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discussion my name is robin shepard

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i'm the vice president of halifax

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international security forum

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and we'll have four fantastic uh

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participants

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but before we do and in a radical

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departure from usual practice we're

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going to actually have a fact-based

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discussion

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so i'd like to invite from globsec

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dominica uh haidu and katka klingova who

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are going to give us some

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some stats and some polling evidence to

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work with

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thanks a lot robin good morning everyone

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present here and online my name is

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dominika haidu

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my name is catherine aklinkova and we're

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researchers from uh democracy

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and resilience center at globesec in

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which we focus on

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um protecting democracy and democratic

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processes

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uh against efforts that are trying to

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undermine them

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and in practice this means that we study

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both domestic and foreign actors the

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channels to which they operate

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the narratives they share and the impact

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this all has on the societies

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one of the means that we measure this

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impact is

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our public opinion polls that look

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into public attitudes towards key issues

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shaping the world and that's why we're

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here we're actually

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uh here to give you a snapshot of the

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results of our research which is the

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latest one it's called globsec trends

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2021

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you can find it online and also

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everywhere here around the hotel

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and this we want to set the tone for the

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next session on regenerating

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uh democracies worldwide and to make

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this a bit more interesting we would

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like to start

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with a poll so if we would like to if we

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could ask you to go to the app

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and select this stage which is a maria

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theresa stage

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you should already be able to see the

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first question

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of the poll which is actually related to

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this data from the globsec trends

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yes so the first question for for for

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us to you is um how do you think that

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the situation

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in central and eastern europe changed

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over the

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past year within the pandemic do you

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think that the support for

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democracy has to increase or the support

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for authoritarian leaders has increased

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yeah this is actually in the past two

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years we

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asked these questions you know whether

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the respondents in central and eastern

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europe

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think that democracy based on equal

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rights and

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regular election is good or bad system

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of governments for

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uh the particular country and we also

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ask them whether a strong leader who

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does not have to bother

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with parliament or elections is good or

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bad for their country so we asked two

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separate questions

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um and yeah um this is what the ce

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responded

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yeah at the moment we have yeah exactly

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uh as you can see from this chart uh it

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actually is both

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uh and this is one of the the

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dichotomies that we observed that

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uh while 84 of central and eastern

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european think that democracy is a good

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system

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of their government at the same time 42

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of central and east europeans think that

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the strong autocratic leader

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is as well good for their government and

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actually the support

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for the autocratic leader has risen by

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15

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in the last year and the strongest

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support you can see it from the chart

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for

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for the strong leadership is in bulgaria

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romania

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and latvia do we have anybody

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from in the audience you know from

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romania from

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bulgaria yeah well you have a lot of

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things to do back home

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when you get back home no but we see

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this is a dangerous trend which we can

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observe these days you know on one hand

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people support democracy

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on the other hand they also have some

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sympathies towards strong leaders

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so towards other perhaps other regimes

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at the same time

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so we can now go to the second poll yes

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the second question we want to ask you

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is whom do central europeans

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trust the most is it the national

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governments it is the

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medical authorities and and scientists

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is it the media or

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is it armed forces what do you think

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so while we wait for your answer so we

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just want to highlight a few of

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other highlights a few findings which

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draw a picture

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of satisfaction and trust in this region

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um

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so for example 59 of central and eastern

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europeans

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believe that their national governments

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handled it by the pandemic badly

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and at the same time 37 of central and

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eastern

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europeans believe that the official

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number of the covet

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cases is actually lower that the

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authorities

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are telling them so they think that the

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national authorities are actually lying

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and yes you are correctly assuming that

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the trust in the national government

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is low i think we can actually show the

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audience the result now

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what are the correct answers yes it's

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armed forces and medical authorities and

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scientists

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actually when it comes to national

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governments the trust is now at 42

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percent

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in the entire region so now actually

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more people distress their governments

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than they trust them and uh at the same

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time yes the trust in the media

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is low and it actually has uh decreased

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also in the past year

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but 72 percent of central and europeans

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believe and trust armed forces and 68

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uh trust doctors and scientific experts

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so we see that these political

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institutions

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and and individuals are actually getting

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more trust or are having more trusted

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political institutions

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so the question is how we cope with such

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a distrust

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and what do we do next what policy

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measures do we need to

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establish in order to make the situation

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better but the answers luckily are not

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upon us but it's uh

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the our fantastic speakers which will

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probably have some answers for us so

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let's hear them out then back to you

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robin

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thank you thank you thank you very much

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uh some of those figures are slightly

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alarming and uh

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uh i'm going to invite ivan krasieff and

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kalinda grab akitarovic to come to the

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stage and uh i i can't let the moment

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pass for very long

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uh although i will uh do some

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introductions first uh

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uh that bulgaria seemed to have a uh a a

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penchant for strongman leaders and ivan

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krastief

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is from bulgaria he's the chairman of

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the center for

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liberal strategies in sofia

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although he's based just an hour's drive

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away from here

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in vienna kalinda grab akitarovic

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is the former president of uh

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croatia and uh kalinda you know halifax

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international security forum is based in

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washington dc

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and uh the word on the street in

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washington dc is that you're the front

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runner to be the next secretary general

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of nato so uh

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in terms of defending our democracies

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this is a an interesting uh

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an interesting development uh yen

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stoltenberg steps down in september

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of next year uh so we'll be watching

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this space very closely

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and very carefully remotely we're joined

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by damon wilson who is the executive

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vice president of the atlantic council

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and soon to be

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the president of the national endowment

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for democracy in the united states a

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very important position welcome

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uh damon uh we're also joined it's a

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particular pleasure to have somebody

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from

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india by neelam dio who's the director

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and co-founder of gateway house

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in new delhi so welcome to everybody

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this is a great discussion it's the key

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discussion of the moment

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uh unfortunately it has been the key

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discussion for many years

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and what i'd like to do in this

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discussion as much as anything else

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is see if we can actually go beyond

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spending 45 minutes simply lamenting the

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state of our democracies

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um having a bit of a whine about

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populists um we do that all the time

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let's see if we can actually

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make some concrete suggestions as to how

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we make the situation better and i think

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even more than that

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to get to a place where we don't simply

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dismiss the public let alone denigrate

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the public and take their concerns

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seriously i think since we started out

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with some

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some facts of the matter uh i think it's

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also um

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very important for us to get a sense of

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what actually is going on

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in our democracies um and i'm

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particularly therefore pleased to to ask

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the first question to nilandayo

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in new delhi india is famously the

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world's

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largest democracy so the question is how

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democratic

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is the world's largest democracy

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so thank you robin i'm delighted to be

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able to join

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this discussion and actually we are

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based in mumbai not delhi

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and that's a big difference being out of

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the

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heat of a political center so i would

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say that

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india is pretty democratic we have a

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leader

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the prime minister has a popularity

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rating of

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over 70 percent despite how problematic

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the second wave of

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the pandemic has been for india with

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high numbers of casualties

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uh uh more actual breakdown of the

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health uh infrastructure but i think the

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point to note here

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is that in india we have free and fair

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elections

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for the federal government as also for

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the state governments

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although the prime minister remains very

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popular

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he has just lost three state government

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elections and quite resoundingly

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and in no case has anybody uh

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refused to accept the results

290
00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,320
of the elections as we had in the united

291
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:33,519
states or we have

292
00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:38,079
now in you know peru or israel or

293
00:10:38,079 --> 00:10:39,040
whatever

294
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,160
people will challenge election results

295
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:43,760
in constituencies

296
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,959
but not the overall result

297
00:10:46,959 --> 00:10:50,160
on the other hand india suffers from all

298
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:51,200
the things

299
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,399
that afflict democracies everywhere the

300
00:10:54,399 --> 00:10:56,959
parliament does not function very well

301
00:10:56,959 --> 00:10:59,760
the judiciary is often accused of being

302
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:00,880
politicized

303
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,480
and sometimes obviously and rightly so

304
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,760
the media is split between those who are

305
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,079
harshly critical of the government and

306
00:11:10,079 --> 00:11:12,240
those who can only find

307
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,120
things to praise the government about

308
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,200
police forces

309
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,839
in many states are actually quite

310
00:11:19,839 --> 00:11:21,279
politicized

311
00:11:21,279 --> 00:11:23,600
the more important thing to my mind is

312
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,079
that political

313
00:11:25,079 --> 00:11:28,480
mobilization is on the basis of

314
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,079
the fissures in our society religion

315
00:11:32,079 --> 00:11:36,399
caste there is no political ideology

316
00:11:36,399 --> 00:11:39,760
animating our political parties here

317
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,920
just as i do not see any ideology

318
00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,120
and animating uh politics uh elsewhere

319
00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:48,399
in the world

320
00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:50,000
well nina this is exactly what i was

321
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,160
going to ask you i mean you you know

322
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,320
mr modi's popularity ratings you said

323
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:55,279
are somewhere above

324
00:11:55,279 --> 00:11:57,839
70 why why is he so popular what is it

325
00:11:57,839 --> 00:11:59,040
that indians

326
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,200
uh i mean given that it's 70 this must

327
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,360
cut a lot across a lot of the

328
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,600
despite the stereotypes cut across a lot

329
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:06,560
of the different

330
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:08,800
sections of a very diverse population

331
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:09,600
what is

332
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,760
why is he so popular what do people like

333
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,040
about him so much

334
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,160
i think a couple of factors one is

335
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,519
that uh political parties in india

336
00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:22,959
as maybe elsewhere are now owned

337
00:12:22,959 --> 00:12:25,600
they are owned either by money or

338
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,360
lobbying powers

339
00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,639
or as in the case of india by families

340
00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:34,240
uh the only other real main you know

341
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,800
all india party the congress party

342
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:37,600
belongs

343
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,800
to the gandhi nehru family and does not

344
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:41,839
have any very

345
00:12:41,839 --> 00:12:44,959
talented politician in that family

346
00:12:44,959 --> 00:12:48,079
any longer so people

347
00:12:48,079 --> 00:12:50,880
have what we call the tina factor there

348
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:51,360
is no

349
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,360
alternative and the prime minister

350
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,040
continues to rate

351
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,440
higher in terms of who the people want

352
00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:58,800
for prime minister

353
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,360
than he does in a lot of other elements

354
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:02,399
of polls

355
00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:04,320
whether they think the economy is doing

356
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,959
well whether they think the pandemic was

357
00:13:06,959 --> 00:13:07,920
handled well

358
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:09,920
in all of those they will the government

359
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,440
gets a lower

360
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,519
percentage of support but they get a

361
00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:15,440
higher percentage of support

362
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,839
because uh they think there isn't an

363
00:13:18,839 --> 00:13:20,399
alternative

364
00:13:20,399 --> 00:13:23,920
political party to be able to lead

365
00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,279
the whole country rather than just

366
00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:29,760
some of the state governments where

367
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,920
regional parties actually do very well

368
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:35,440
thank you very much for that overview

369
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,360
it's absolutely fascinating and i think

370
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:37,680
we'll

371
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:40,160
we'll do a little bit of overviewing um

372
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:41,680
for the first five or ten minutes before

373
00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:42,959
we go on to as i said

374
00:13:42,959 --> 00:13:44,720
trying to get to some some concrete

375
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,639
suggestions as to what we do

376
00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:48,800
damon wilson in washington d.c that's

377
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:49,920
indeed where you are

378
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,279
uh right this second um uh damon um

379
00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:55,360
american democracy has been under the

380
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:56,480
spotlight it's always under the

381
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,160
spotlight because america is

382
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,320
is the is the most important democracy

383
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,079
in the world let's be clear about that

384
00:14:02,079 --> 00:14:04,079
um it is the most influential it's the

385
00:14:04,079 --> 00:14:05,440
one everybody's watching

386
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,600
um the the racial question the racial

387
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,279
divide in the united states is right at

388
00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:10,720
the forefront of the discussion i live

389
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:11,920
in washington dc

390
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,440
you can't turn on the television news

391
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,680
without this being discussed

392
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:16,880
from the perspective of people like

393
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,560
vladimir putin of course this is a sign

394
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:19,519
of weakness

395
00:14:19,519 --> 00:14:21,519
but actually the discussion in in my

396
00:14:21,519 --> 00:14:23,440
opinion and i put it to you

397
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,160
is a sign of strength insofar as you

398
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,760
would agree with that

399
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,160
how do you assess the state of american

400
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:31,519
democracy right now

401
00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:34,000
and is there is there a real prospect of

402
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,079
advancement in these very contentious

403
00:14:36,079 --> 00:14:36,800
issues

404
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,199
that clearly have and continue to divide

405
00:14:39,199 --> 00:14:42,480
the united states of america

406
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,480
thank you and yes i am joining from

407
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,399
washington i wish i were with all of you

408
00:14:46,399 --> 00:14:48,160
in person but it's uh

409
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:49,440
such a pleasure to be back with the

410
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,839
globex family and this uh fantastic

411
00:14:51,839 --> 00:14:55,199
uh uh panel as well robin i think you're

412
00:14:55,199 --> 00:14:56,880
right what's playing out right now in

413
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:57,839
the united states

414
00:14:57,839 --> 00:15:01,040
it's messy and you see a lot of debate a

415
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:01,920
lot of tension

416
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,399
political polarization sharp social

417
00:15:04,399 --> 00:15:05,839
cleavages

418
00:15:05,839 --> 00:15:08,639
and yet where we began this conversation

419
00:15:08,639 --> 00:15:09,199
was with

420
00:15:09,199 --> 00:15:11,199
a survey of public opinion public

421
00:15:11,199 --> 00:15:12,320
attitudes

422
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,959
what do our people think and that is the

423
00:15:14,959 --> 00:15:15,920
reality

424
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,399
of democracy that it's a reflection of

425
00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:19,199
our people

426
00:15:19,199 --> 00:15:22,240
of their fears their wants their desires

427
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,440
and the process of american democracy

428
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,320
is messy but it is a fundamentally one

429
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,639
that is

430
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,639
i think we just lost in mid-sentence

431
00:15:34,639 --> 00:15:36,480
let's see if it comes back

432
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:37,920
all right we'll go back uh we'll come

433
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,199
back to damon he was making a very

434
00:15:39,199 --> 00:15:40,880
important point there but let's uh jump

435
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:42,720
in with ivan crusty if i did say

436
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,320
and i can't avoid asking you this with

437
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,240
the opinion polling we just saw

438
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,480
uh this the penchant for strongman

439
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:49,839
leadership in bulgaria looks pretty

440
00:15:49,839 --> 00:15:50,240
strong

441
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,160
is that a fair reflection of what's

442
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,480
going on in in bulgaria

443
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:55,839
and other parts of central and eastern

444
00:15:55,839 --> 00:15:57,920
europe where romania was also a country

445
00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,279
with a high degree of

446
00:15:59,279 --> 00:16:01,120
support for the notion of a strongman

447
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,720
leader

448
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,480
robin you know there was this christian

449
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,079
tradition that people who committed

450
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:07,120
suicide

451
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:08,880
should be buried outside of the

452
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,160
graveyards

453
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:11,680
i do believe people who do not read

454
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,360
opinion polls should be

455
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,199
buried outside of the graveyards but

456
00:16:15,199 --> 00:16:16,959
people who basically read too much in

457
00:16:16,959 --> 00:16:18,560
the opinion polls

458
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,000
should be buried outside of the

459
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,600
graveyards too

460
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,519
we start with the assumptions that

461
00:16:23,519 --> 00:16:24,959
people

462
00:16:24,959 --> 00:16:27,199
all the time clash idea of democracy

463
00:16:27,199 --> 00:16:28,639
with the idea of the strong leadership

464
00:16:28,639 --> 00:16:29,920
it's not true

465
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,240
you go through a major crisis and people

466
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,440
are looking for

467
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,279
strong leaders but they want these

468
00:16:35,279 --> 00:16:37,600
leaders to be elected by them

469
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,959
so from this point of view if you're

470
00:16:38,959 --> 00:16:41,279
going to ask what people answering

471
00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:42,639
they believe that in the moment of

472
00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:44,000
crisis they have a leaders that have

473
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,920
certain discretionary powers

474
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,759
this was a poll being done during the

475
00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:50,079
pandemic there is a problem with

476
00:16:50,079 --> 00:16:52,079
democracy and there is a dissatisfaction

477
00:16:52,079 --> 00:16:54,000
with democracy in bulgaria and this is

478
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,800
very much uh there and you can see this

479
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,079
very much happening

480
00:16:58,079 --> 00:17:01,519
it does not mean that people are seeing

481
00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:03,839
authoritarian leader in the lack of the

482
00:17:03,839 --> 00:17:05,839
end of democracy as an alternative

483
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:07,520
so in a certain way for me the real

484
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,839
problem in most of our countries

485
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:12,640
is not that authoritarianism is on rise

486
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:13,039
but

487
00:17:13,039 --> 00:17:14,559
the border between democracy and

488
00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:17,039
authoritarianism is the least protected

489
00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:19,119
border in the region

490
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,959
and you have a level of dissatisfaction

491
00:17:20,959 --> 00:17:22,799
bulgaria goes for elections

492
00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:26,000
also political cycles matters

493
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,599
there was a government that basically

494
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,320
was in power for the last 10 12 years

495
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,720
listen nevertheless how good you are you

496
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,480
are not aging well in power

497
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,120
this is part of the story too so from

498
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:38,640
this point of view bulgaria is ready for

499
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,799
change

500
00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:42,480
and this is the most important in my

501
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:43,919
view in all our talks

502
00:17:43,919 --> 00:17:46,160
it's not simply democracies in crisis

503
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,799
modern societies are changing a lot

504
00:17:48,799 --> 00:17:50,960
they're changing demographically they're

505
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:52,559
changing technologically

506
00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:54,880
they're changing economically and people

507
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,360
cannot make sense of this change

508
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:00,400
because for me what has changed most is

509
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,280
people ask these days to have an opinion

510
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,960
about things that they cannot have a

511
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,280
personal experience on

512
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,520
before 50 or 60 of the things that have

513
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:10,960
been discussed in politics

514
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,799
you have certain personal experience on

515
00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:14,240
which you can rely

516
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,360
now how i can know what is happening

517
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:19,520
with the coronavirus and so on

518
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,280
and then of course this information

519
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,039
space which was totally

520
00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:25,200
fragmented and which basically was

521
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,360
poisoned is something that is changing

522
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:28,720
people perceptions

523
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,600
but with all dissatisfaction it's not my

524
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:32,799
view

525
00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:35,120
that central and eastern europe is

526
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:36,480
basically embracing

527
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,880
some type of authoritarian models ask

528
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,240
people do you want

529
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,200
elections to be banned and then you're

530
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:43,919
going to see

531
00:18:43,919 --> 00:18:47,200
no they want to have the power

532
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,840
to dismiss the same strong leaders that

533
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,679
they're working for

534
00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:53,120
yeah yes it's interesting isn't it we

535
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:54,880
can we can certainly find opinion poll

536
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,080
evidence which makes us all very

537
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,840
depressed but but actually at the end of

538
00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:58,960
the day if you say to people

539
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,960
all right so you want to really abolish

540
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,440
elections and just have a dictator or a

541
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:04,559
monarch or something

542
00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:06,799
nobody actually wants that to happen um

543
00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:08,640
calinda i wanted to refer back to the

544
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,240
the point that i posed to damon and

545
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,080
damon will uh rejoin us when he links

546
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:12,880
back up

547
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,720
and and this is the point about american

548
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,480
democracy having such an important

549
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:17,440
signaling

550
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,600
function around the world it's

551
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,440
reputationally vital

552
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,440
that american democracy is seen to be

553
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:24,720
healthy um

554
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,960
from the perspective of of croatia as a

555
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,440
former president

556
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,840
what do you believe the perception of

557
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:32,480
croats

558
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,440
is um of uh american democracy do they

559
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:36,880
look at the kind of things i described

560
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:37,440
and think

561
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:38,960
well the whole thing is is just falling

562
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,400
apart so they think well look this is

563
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:41,679
how democracy works

564
00:19:41,679 --> 00:19:44,720
i mean is america still seen as this

565
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,200
sort of shining light on a hill um or is

566
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:48,640
it seem to be tarnished

567
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,559
and people sort of think that well you

568
00:19:50,559 --> 00:19:51,919
know american democracy isn't what it

569
00:19:51,919 --> 00:19:53,120
used to be

570
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:54,799
well certainly there have been some

571
00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:56,960
setbacks and uh

572
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,360
you know we all have to face the fact

573
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:00,080
that uh

574
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,480
america has been the beacon of democracy

575
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:03,679
for all of us

576
00:20:03,679 --> 00:20:06,720
uh and an example and with the

577
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,919
developments uh uh last year it

578
00:20:09,919 --> 00:20:12,240
so it did tarnish a little bit about the

579
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,679
american reputation

580
00:20:13,679 --> 00:20:15,760
and i would say everyone else who

581
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,919
associates with the us

582
00:20:17,919 --> 00:20:20,960
as an example and an ally because

583
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,320
uh it sort of uh builds upon your own

584
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:25,600
reputation who

585
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,480
you associate with and a lot of people

586
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,240
actually asked me to compare the

587
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,000
situation in the us to the former

588
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,760
yugoslavia which is completely

589
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:34,640
incomparable

590
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,080
because former yugoslavia was an

591
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,360
authoritarian

592
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,080
state that fell apart for many different

593
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:42,799
reasons

594
00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:44,880
one of them being that people were not

595
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:46,880
able to express their freedoms

596
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,280
but the way that the u.s has handled the

597
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:50,559
situation has

598
00:20:50,559 --> 00:20:52,720
shown that they've recognized the

599
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:53,760
problems

600
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,000
that uh during the trump administration

601
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,360
they didn't serve

602
00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:00,240
they didn't become a reality but they

603
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:00,559
just

604
00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:04,159
surfaced from something that was uh

605
00:21:04,159 --> 00:21:07,280
ignored by the elites i would say for

606
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:08,960
years and decades

607
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,880
and it was just a catalyst for the

608
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,159
problems to come out

609
00:21:12,159 --> 00:21:15,280
and to boil up on the surface

610
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,080
causing a number of events including uh

611
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,000
the public reaction

612
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,480
now uh we're all looking towards the u.s

613
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,640
how they will handle the situation

614
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,880
because uh the last election of course

615
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,559
president biden won

616
00:21:28,559 --> 00:21:30,480
but when you look at the numbers you

617
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:31,679
cannot just

618
00:21:31,679 --> 00:21:35,919
uh simply dismiss the 74.5 million

619
00:21:35,919 --> 00:21:36,720
people

620
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,240
who voted trump uh actually he got more

621
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,919
popular vote than in the

622
00:21:41,919 --> 00:21:44,720
first election that he won so you need

623
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,200
to engage them in a dialogue and this is

624
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,039
the responsibility of the so-called

625
00:21:49,039 --> 00:21:50,559
political elites

626
00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:53,600
trump's election in the first place was

627
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,720
uh in part due

628
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,280
to the fact that people were resisting

629
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,120
the political establishments and the

630
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,200
political elites for different reasons

631
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,240
that we can discuss

632
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,240
further but uh uh

633
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,919
the fact that uh we've seen rifts across

634
00:22:11,919 --> 00:22:12,880
societies

635
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,240
it uh imposes further obligations on

636
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,600
politicians

637
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,039
on uh leadership not to look

638
00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:24,559
uh at the outside environment as the

639
00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:26,320
cause of the grievances

640
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,120
or the cause of their problems but

641
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:30,400
really to look

642
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,960
inside and see what is wrong that we

643
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,039
have been doing for decades and for

644
00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:37,120
years in order to provoke not just

645
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:38,640
populist movements

646
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,120
but third options and alternative

647
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:42,640
movements because

648
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,080
not all of them uh are necessarily bad

649
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:47,919
for a certain country

650
00:22:47,919 --> 00:22:51,360
and to engage and to discuss those

651
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:52,240
grievances

652
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,280
and try to mend the rifts across society

653
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,280
i think the president biden has taken a

654
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,880
very wise approach

655
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,000
of uh after he won elections

656
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,840
and especially during his inaugural

657
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,679
speech he

658
00:23:05,679 --> 00:23:08,320
pointed out that america is a democracy

659
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,240
that has its deficiencies

660
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,799
it's not a perfect union but a goal is

661
00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:14,480
the more perfect union that it's a

662
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,000
healing process

663
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,720
and that they are able to overcome these

664
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,159
divides

665
00:23:20,159 --> 00:23:21,760
on this side of the atlantic of course

666
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,080
we have huge expectations the president

667
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:24,799
biden

668
00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:27,200
and of the us and i hope he will have

669
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,280
the time and the resources to truly

670
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,400
live up to them because we want to not

671
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,720
just restore the transatlantic

672
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,679
relationship but we want to restore the

673
00:23:37,679 --> 00:23:40,159
belief in democracy and democratic

674
00:23:40,159 --> 00:23:41,279
systems

675
00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:44,559
and we really do not uh serve

676
00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:47,600
our purpose as politicians or

677
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,600
as people who as leaders

678
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,679
if we try to uh first of all resist

679
00:23:55,679 --> 00:23:58,000
the fact that we need to change from the

680
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,080
ways that we were doing business before

681
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:00,640
because

682
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,760
the world has changed if we engage in a

683
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,120
blame shifting

684
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,919
game instead of uh looking at what we

685
00:24:07,919 --> 00:24:08,880
have done that was

686
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,200
wrong and that could be remedied and

687
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,600
especially in blaming the public for not

688
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,640
understanding or misinterpreting

689
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,080
our own actions or our own policies uh

690
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,200
additionally if we paint a picture

691
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,159
in our our own public appearances and in

692
00:24:26,159 --> 00:24:27,919
talking to the public

693
00:24:27,919 --> 00:24:30,559
that are is not realistic and that does

694
00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:33,200
not correspond to actual state of events

695
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,039
and the reality of situation

696
00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:38,400
in our own countries so we do

697
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,360
have to admit that yes there are

698
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:43,360
shortcomings there are challenges and

699
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,039
we're ready and we need to

700
00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:48,880
deal with these challenges additionally

701
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:49,200
you

702
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,679
see that a lot of people have started to

703
00:24:51,679 --> 00:24:52,960
resist these

704
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,240
traditional establishments and elites

705
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,840
simply because people are tired of uh

706
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,240
political dynasties or dynasties

707
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,640
um so whichever pronunciation you prefer

708
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,960
and if we promise better and equal

709
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,880
opportunities for all we

710
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,679
really have to live up to that and be

711
00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:15,520
inclusive rather than

712
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,960
exclusive and uh the fact that

713
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,600
again i mentioned changed the

714
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,360
information environment

715
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:26,400
has radically changed the way that we do

716
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,400
business both connective and

717
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,159
uh disruptive technologies not just

718
00:25:32,159 --> 00:25:35,200
in science and technology and what

719
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,080
pandemics has emphasized work the

720
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,600
workplace and school

721
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,320
but also politics and i don't think that

722
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,000
the traditional political elites are

723
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,120
prepared for that

724
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,080
you know day-to-day public relations

725
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:48,799
business and

726
00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:52,640
issuing communiques is not going to

727
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,000
help things we truly need to

728
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,679
listen to what uh the

729
00:25:59,679 --> 00:26:02,640
so to say the other side although i'm

730
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:03,360
really

731
00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,640
against that us and them division so

732
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,720
really to engage that other side address

733
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,320
those grievances

734
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,520
show that you care and work together

735
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,159
to try to find it to try to find a path

736
00:26:16,159 --> 00:26:18,000
forward and i think this is the

737
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,120
the best outcome for the us as well in

738
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:22,880
all of the problems that they have post

739
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,080
pandemic

740
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,080
not just health issues but economic

741
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,799
issues national reconciliation

742
00:26:28,799 --> 00:26:32,000
so to speak and the path forward

743
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,279
in how to engage those who were

744
00:26:34,279 --> 00:26:35,440
dissatisfied

745
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,640
and were isolated uh

746
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,440
two different shady platforms how to

747
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,480
integrate them

748
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,279
again in mainstream politics and make it

749
00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:47,360
a true functional dialogue

750
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:48,960
um calinda thanks you've provided a lot

751
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,640
of of of

752
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,480
perfectly uh and aptly provocative um

753
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:55,840
points which i will raise in the sort of

754
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,840
next round of question of what we do and

755
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,679
what have we been doing wrong i wanted

756
00:26:59,679 --> 00:27:01,360
to bring back uh damon wilson her

757
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:03,039
technology intervened

758
00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:05,279
against us this time it's working in our

759
00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:07,520
favor generally uh today at least

760
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,240
um but damon we were talking about uh

761
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,240
the question of the restorative power of

762
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,919
american democracy and the

763
00:27:13,919 --> 00:27:16,240
the divides in society just before uh

764
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:17,279
you could have um

765
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:19,360
perhaps just go back to where where you

766
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:20,960
were before we were interrupted and

767
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,520
continue on that theme of of american

768
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,120
health and strength

769
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:28,080
in the face of of obviously problems

770
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,880
that everybody's aware of

771
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,559
thank you robin we're working on both

772
00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:34,000
our democracy and sometimes

773
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,159
our technology apologies but good to be

774
00:27:36,159 --> 00:27:38,559
back you captured it with uh

775
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:40,799
the word restorative the power of

776
00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:42,320
american democracy is that it's

777
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,760
self-correcting

778
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,000
we don't need russian propaganda or

779
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,840
chinese propaganda to point out the

780
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,840
shortcomings or fissures or failures of

781
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,360
american society

782
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,039
we're pretty good at that that's the

783
00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:54,640
story of our democracy

784
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,919
it's our history and so yes we can't be

785
00:27:57,919 --> 00:28:01,279
naive and paper over the the challenges

786
00:28:01,279 --> 00:28:02,320
to

787
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,720
american democracy and society today

788
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,039
it's because we face those challenges

789
00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:10,080
head on that our democracy is resilient

790
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,399
and it gives me a sense of optimism not

791
00:28:12,399 --> 00:28:13,600
naivete

792
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,000
but optimism about america american

793
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:16,880
democracy

794
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,200
going forward we started this

795
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,200
conversation about being responsive to

796
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,200
our publics and that is the fundamentals

797
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,720
of a democracy

798
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,880
and so in united states where we had a

799
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,320
great recession where

800
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,240
wall street recovered before main street

801
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,880
we saw exacerbated inequalities

802
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,880
particular racial inequalities coming

803
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:35,600
out of a

804
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,559
that that unequal slow recovery a real

805
00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:40,880
devastating impact on our manufacturing

806
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:41,679
base

807
00:28:41,679 --> 00:28:44,480
political gridlock and and concerning

808
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,399
the public about our in

809
00:28:46,399 --> 00:28:48,399
long-term military commitments in places

810
00:28:48,399 --> 00:28:50,480
like iraq and afghanistan

811
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,799
it produced a public backlash that said

812
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:53,600
the elites

813
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,360
are failing us and we want something

814
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,240
different that's democracy that is a

815
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,000
public being responsive

816
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,600
and we've seen this through some

817
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,760
convulsions politically here

818
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,480
but that is the the way of a messy

819
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,200
process of working through these factors

820
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,080
and so uh if you think about it a little

821
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,080
bit with a historic perspective

822
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,000
i mean president eisenhower sent federal

823
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,320
troops into little rock arkansas when he

824
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:19,279
addressed the nation

825
00:29:19,279 --> 00:29:21,679
explaining why he was doing this to

826
00:29:21,679 --> 00:29:22,320
address

827
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,559
racial inequality and segregation at

828
00:29:24,559 --> 00:29:25,520
home

829
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,840
he really cited how could the united

830
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,440
states play a leadership role

831
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,480
in the free world on the world stage if

832
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,039
it can't live up to those values at home

833
00:29:35,039 --> 00:29:38,000
that story continues to unfold in a very

834
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,120
different way

835
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,440
but with some interesting parallels the

836
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:42,720
united states makes it through

837
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,200
the 68 protests the nixon impeachment

838
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,679
bellez

839
00:29:47,679 --> 00:29:49,840
and the carter administration with the

840
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,600
restorative process

841
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,720
and so it's not easy and it's not clean

842
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,240
but that's what's playing out right now

843
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,760
in the united states which gives

844
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,200
me a sense of optimism that renewal

845
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,039
at home in the united states renewal

846
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:05,279
across democracies in the west

847
00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:07,440
is fundamentally tied to the topic of

848
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,039
this conversation

849
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:11,120
showing that democracy can deliver for

850
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,679
its people and the great democracies

851
00:30:13,679 --> 00:30:15,600
i think is a key ingredient to be a

852
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,399
catalyst for the advance of democracy

853
00:30:18,399 --> 00:30:21,919
more globally damon i wonder i'm moving

854
00:30:21,919 --> 00:30:22,399
into this

855
00:30:22,399 --> 00:30:24,320
this question of what we actually do and

856
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:25,600
obviously we're going to do something

857
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,799
sensible we have to

858
00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:28,640
be aware of where the problems actually

859
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,520
lie uh you've mentioned certain events

860
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,919
uh and the way that elites responded to

861
00:30:33,919 --> 00:30:35,520
the events i mean we had the

862
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,440
uh we had the iraq war and we have the

863
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,520
question of weapons of mass destruction

864
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,760
in my opinion um pretty much every

865
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:42,799
discussion

866
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:45,600
is sort of it sort of looms as a shadow

867
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:46,000
um

868
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,320
over uh the american public and i think

869
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,640
what happened then a few years later

870
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,760
in 2008 with the great recession um

871
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,960
when uh it was seen that a lot of people

872
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,320
suffered but not the people who'd

873
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,080
actually caused the problem um

874
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,799
banker's bonuses famously continued for

875
00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:04,240
many years very few people there were a

876
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:05,519
couple of full guys

877
00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:07,120
uh but very few people actually lost

878
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,799
their jobs um

879
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:10,720
i'm wondering to what extent i mean

880
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,080
there is this restorative power of

881
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,679
american democracy and democracy

882
00:31:13,679 --> 00:31:14,480
generally

883
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,159
but to what extent are the problems you

884
00:31:16,159 --> 00:31:17,919
know deeper than that that are actually

885
00:31:17,919 --> 00:31:18,799
structural

886
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:21,120
i mean the united states famously is

887
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:21,919
constructed

888
00:31:21,919 --> 00:31:24,640
uh through a constitution in the 18th

889
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:25,519
century

890
00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:26,880
it was against the backdrop of

891
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,559
technological and social

892
00:31:28,559 --> 00:31:30,399
realities which prevailed in the 18th

893
00:31:30,399 --> 00:31:32,640
century not the 21st century

894
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,720
is there any sense in which american

895
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,960
democracy is actually outdated

896
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,360
and in in order to really move forward

897
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,360
there's going to have to be a massive

898
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,720
new rethink of how democracy is done

899
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,200
look uh i think american institutions

900
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,039
the constitution the institutions that

901
00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:52,960
flow from it the checks and balances has

902
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,320
been one of the great

903
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,000
uh power one of the great under

904
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,440
infrastructures that has led to

905
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,960
america's success in america's power

906
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,240
i think part of what we've been

907
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,799
grappling with is how that system has

908
00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:06,080
been

909
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,559
driven by money and politics towards

910
00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:10,720
more political polarization

911
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,760
and incentives behind blockage obstacles

912
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:14,799
gridlock

913
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:16,240
and so that's where we see a fervent

914
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,480
debate today and we're responding

915
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,480
the expansion of ranked choice of choice

916
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,960
voting across the united states

917
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,679
the increasing presence of nonpartisan

918
00:32:25,679 --> 00:32:26,720
primaries

919
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,240
and yet it still is faced with the

920
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,240
counter winds of money and politics and

921
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:31,760
gerrymandering of districts

922
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,399
but we're working through that are there

923
00:32:34,399 --> 00:32:36,240
structural challenges of course there

924
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,320
are but that's been part of our history

925
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:38,960
here

926
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,519
it doesn't mean that we have a wholesale

927
00:32:41,519 --> 00:32:42,240
default

928
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,159
problem of our our democracy that we

929
00:32:44,159 --> 00:32:45,679
need to turn our back on

930
00:32:45,679 --> 00:32:47,120
it means we need to be committed to the

931
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,600
relentless process of helping to

932
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,440
improve it make it more effective and

933
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,840
adapt it for modern circumstances

934
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,679
and that's what we see move forward and

935
00:32:55,679 --> 00:32:57,360
two steps forward one step back

936
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,919
fits and starts political balance but

937
00:32:59,919 --> 00:33:00,720
i'm not

938
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,720
overly concerned that we've got a

939
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,480
structural dysfunction that takes the

940
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,159
united states out of the game

941
00:33:06,159 --> 00:33:09,200
we're coming out of this pandemic

942
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,360
vaccinating our population opening the

943
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,320
economy

944
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,799
unprecedented rates of of economic

945
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:15,919
growth

946
00:33:15,919 --> 00:33:17,919
and one of the healthiest debates on

947
00:33:17,919 --> 00:33:19,760
racial inequality that we've had that is

948
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,559
going to lead to change in progress

949
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:24,799
an unprecedented historic investments in

950
00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:26,559
structural issues around

951
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:29,039
infrastructure around our democracy it

952
00:33:29,039 --> 00:33:30,000
won't be linear

953
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,399
it won't be clean but the concept of

954
00:33:32,399 --> 00:33:33,840
renewal at home

955
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,960
fueling a way to to renew democratic

956
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,080
leadership on the world

957
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,480
stage that's a direct connection between

958
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,480
what's happening domestically here

959
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,919
and internationally on the world stage

960
00:33:45,919 --> 00:33:49,600
um uh neelam in india you didn't

961
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,760
you don't quite have the the history of

962
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,000
the united states of uh of what two

963
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,840
almost two and a half centuries now of

964
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,159
constitutional democracy but i mean

965
00:33:58,159 --> 00:34:00,240
india is a very imp it's incredible i

966
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,679
think to many people that

967
00:34:01,679 --> 00:34:03,600
indian democracy functions as well as it

968
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,000
does given how diverse a society and how

969
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,119
enormous the society is

970
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:11,359
is there a conversation going on in

971
00:34:11,359 --> 00:34:12,320
india

972
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,599
about renewal and and

973
00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:17,440
in fact structural change of the way

974
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,359
democracy is done my sense is that

975
00:34:19,359 --> 00:34:21,760
is that what damon said is actually true

976
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,440
of most democracies there isn't

977
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:24,800
amongst the elites there isn't really a

978
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,639
conversation about actually

979
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:28,800
changing the way democracy is done for

980
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,000
example

981
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,679
really integrating the digital

982
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:33,520
revolution into the decision-making

983
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:34,000
process

984
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,918
everybody's interested in communication

985
00:34:35,918 --> 00:34:37,520
through the digital revolution but

986
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,040
there aren't many people around talking

987
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,280
about you know a sort of digital

988
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,599
national assembly or something like that

989
00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:46,480
where is the debate in india about

990
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,280
how democracy actually can or should or

991
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:50,399
maybe should not

992
00:34:50,399 --> 00:34:53,118
uh develop

993
00:34:54,079 --> 00:34:56,320
so i would say there's not much of a

994
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,720
conversation

995
00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:00,560
because people are really shouting at

996
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,040
each other's so the ones who don't like

997
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,359
the way things are going

998
00:35:05,359 --> 00:35:08,240
finding fault with everything and then

999
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,160
there are those who think

1000
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,359
this is great i think

1001
00:35:13,359 --> 00:35:15,520
i would say that damon is probably right

1002
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,200
in terms of saying that

1003
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,200
at this moment the united states is

1004
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:20,400
having the most

1005
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,440
interesting conversation about race but

1006
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,040
i would have to say that

1007
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,599
after 400 years if they are still having

1008
00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:28,880
a conversation

1009
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,440
and the situation relating to race it's

1010
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,560
discouraging

1011
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,960
just like in india it's very

1012
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,240
discouraging

1013
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:39,280
that we have not been able to move

1014
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,480
ahead on caste related issues

1015
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,520
and caste has become a big factor of

1016
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,280
political mobilization

1017
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,160
similarly religion which was not a

1018
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:50,960
factor

1019
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,680
for political mobilization in india has

1020
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,359
become a really deep

1021
00:35:55,359 --> 00:35:58,079
fissure now maybe because we didn't

1022
00:35:58,079 --> 00:35:59,359
discuss it

1023
00:35:59,359 --> 00:36:01,440
and we wanted to bury the fact that the

1024
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,040
partition of the country

1025
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,680
was based on religion and for many years

1026
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,760
nobody wanted to talk about it

1027
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,839
i mean my parents are refugees from what

1028
00:36:09,839 --> 00:36:11,359
is now pakistan

1029
00:36:11,359 --> 00:36:14,720
and my family never wanted to discuss

1030
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:17,280
the partition why it happened how it

1031
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,400
happened

1032
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,480
what what kind of deep trauma

1033
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,520
was inflicted on various people so

1034
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,359
i'd say we are all at different spaces

1035
00:36:29,359 --> 00:36:31,839
whether it the united states or eastern

1036
00:36:31,839 --> 00:36:32,640
europe

1037
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,680
or wherever and it's very important to

1038
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:36,480
recognize

1039
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,520
these massive differences and not

1040
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,800
try and comprehend democracy as if there

1041
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:43,520
were

1042
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,800
a one size that fits all we are at

1043
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,240
different stages of

1044
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:52,000
economic prosperity of race relations

1045
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,680
of religious uh strife in fact

1046
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,280
or you know so in india we are actually

1047
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:00,400
not having

1048
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,760
a very uh reasoned

1049
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,760
fundamental conversation because we're

1050
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,920
still at the stage of shouting at each

1051
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:08,560
other

1052
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,119
and i'm actually beginning to wonder

1053
00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:13,119
whether we need to continue

1054
00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:17,359
to deify the people where

1055
00:37:17,359 --> 00:37:19,920
democracies are now talking about the

1056
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:20,720
people

1057
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,760
in the same way as the marxists used to

1058
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,839
and you will all remember that it was

1059
00:37:25,839 --> 00:37:26,800
said that you know

1060
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,760
marxism likes the people it just doesn't

1061
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:30,160
like

1062
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,280
you so i think we need to understand

1063
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,640
why is it that a majority of people in

1064
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,960
all our countries are voting the way

1065
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:39,920
they do

1066
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,359
and the voting mostly i would say

1067
00:37:43,359 --> 00:37:46,160
even with all the challenges gives us

1068
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,920
the results that it would

1069
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,040
even if there are issues here and there

1070
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,760
why is it that people vote the way they

1071
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:54,640
do

1072
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,240
what is it that is it's not just a case

1073
00:37:58,240 --> 00:37:59,200
of saying that

1074
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,440
we have to talk to the people the people

1075
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,200
don't want to talk to you

1076
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,720
is the situation at the moment

1077
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:08,720
i'm said and i think we all agree that

1078
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:10,720
the the fate of american democracy is

1079
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:11,920
vital to the whole

1080
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,920
democratic project across the world but

1081
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,079
india is also vital to that project i

1082
00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:17,359
mean

1083
00:38:17,359 --> 00:38:18,800
partly because it's the largest single

1084
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,320
democracy and also it shows that

1085
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:21,760
democracy can be done in a

1086
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,280
very diverse society um it's also the

1087
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:26,880
case of course that in asia there is a

1088
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:27,920
competing

1089
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,040
uh rival system for development

1090
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,040
uh namely by communist china um ivan

1091
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,079
i wonder how important you think that

1092
00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:39,760
the development success

1093
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,119
failures of indian democracy are to the

1094
00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:44,400
wider question

1095
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,280
of how democracy is perceived in the

1096
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,920
world today

1097
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,400
so let's be very frank i don't believe

1098
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,480
that the fate of indian democracy is

1099
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,000
what is going to shape

1100
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,839
the opinion of bulgarian voters about

1101
00:38:58,839 --> 00:39:01,200
democracy india is extremely important

1102
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,119
in the geopolitical context but people

1103
00:39:03,119 --> 00:39:04,560
are much more local and

1104
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,200
provincial and no basically democracy

1105
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:07,839
that they know

1106
00:39:07,839 --> 00:39:10,079
united states is different because of

1107
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:11,839
the fact that basically

1108
00:39:11,839 --> 00:39:13,440
everybody particularly in central and

1109
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,200
eastern europe for when they talk about

1110
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,880
democracy was imagining the united

1111
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:17,520
states

1112
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:18,880
and the biggest thing that happened in

1113
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,560
the united states honestly speaking

1114
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,960
is contesting the election results it's

1115
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,240
not how people

1116
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,640
are voting this in democracy is very

1117
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,480
important how parties are losing

1118
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,480
elections

1119
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,119
but while india is very important on one

1120
00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:34,640
theoretical level

1121
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,240
listen people look the world that they

1122
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:37,839
know

1123
00:39:37,839 --> 00:39:39,680
and of course knowing that india is a

1124
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,920
democracy is very important but i don't

1125
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,040
believe this is shaping

1126
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,040
uh bulgarian voters also i do believe

1127
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,200
that strangely enough we try to believe

1128
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,040
that if there is a crisis of democracy

1129
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,000
this is the same crisis

1130
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,680
and listen you can be in a crisis for

1131
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,520
different reasons based on different

1132
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,359
experiences

1133
00:39:59,359 --> 00:40:00,960
and for me there are two things talking

1134
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,040
about what is happening and not

1135
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,160
happening that probably

1136
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:05,680
important and we are not talking a lot

1137
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,400
about our societies particularly in

1138
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,079
europe are going to go through a major

1139
00:40:10,079 --> 00:40:13,359
demographic change and

1140
00:40:13,359 --> 00:40:14,400
we don't know how to talk about

1141
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:15,839
demography from this point of view

1142
00:40:15,839 --> 00:40:18,079
pandemic was critically important

1143
00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:19,839
i'm going to give you south korean

1144
00:40:19,839 --> 00:40:21,920
numbers in other not just to stay east

1145
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:22,880
european

1146
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,720
to tell you what is going to happen in

1147
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:26,720
the next 30 40 years if we basically

1148
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:27,599
trust

1149
00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:30,720
demographers so in 30 years

1150
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:32,880
the population of south korea when a

1151
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,880
very well functioning and prosperous

1152
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,240
asian democracy

1153
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:38,720
is going to lose half of it population

1154
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:40,319
because basically they have less than

1155
00:40:40,319 --> 00:40:41,119
one

1156
00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:45,200
uh child per woman 40

1157
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,800
of people in south korea today live

1158
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,240
in a single household you have basically

1159
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:54,160
the new generation which have a totally

1160
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:55,680
different experience and i'm saying this

1161
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,440
not because it's good or bad

1162
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,359
but because this is changing incredibly

1163
00:40:59,359 --> 00:41:01,440
the way all these functions

1164
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,520
imagine that in 30 years in bulgaria

1165
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,119
most probably

1166
00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:06,880
30 percent of the people on the labor

1167
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,359
market are not going to have a voting

1168
00:41:09,359 --> 00:41:09,920
rights

1169
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,280
because they're not going to be

1170
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,040
bulgarian citizens

1171
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,359
at the same time probably 15 of the

1172
00:41:15,359 --> 00:41:17,119
bulgarian citizens are going to live out

1173
00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:18,160
of the country

1174
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:19,599
so they're going to vote but they're not

1175
00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:21,760
going to pay taxes in the country

1176
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,839
and 40 of the voters are going to be on

1177
00:41:23,839 --> 00:41:25,200
the retirement age

1178
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,839
at this very moment 40 percent of people

1179
00:41:27,839 --> 00:41:29,599
living in vienna

1180
00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:32,560
could not vote on the votes for the

1181
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:33,520
mayor

1182
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,760
of vienna it's not that we don't have a

1183
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,200
political rights i have my political

1184
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,040
rights in bulgaria i'm voting there

1185
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,640
but you're living in vienna most of the

1186
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,640
time and from this point of view this

1187
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:43,440
changes

1188
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,839
is totally changing the way democracy

1189
00:41:45,839 --> 00:41:46,960
functions

1190
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:48,960
and i do believe we should be very much

1191
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:50,480
open to this kind of a

1192
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,560
bigger trend aging of the population

1193
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,680
a major divorce between the labor market

1194
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:58,960
and body politics

1195
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,640
because it is not true that eastern

1196
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,480
europe is close to foreigners

1197
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,319
do you know which was the european union

1198
00:42:04,319 --> 00:42:06,560
member states that got most labour

1199
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:07,359
immigrants

1200
00:42:07,359 --> 00:42:08,560
for the last three years before

1201
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,680
immigration poland

1202
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,560
so all these trends are there but when

1203
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,000
we talk about democracy we

1204
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,760
try to imagine that it is going to look

1205
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,240
like as if before the crisis

1206
00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:22,079
in the way our economy is not going to

1207
00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:23,599
look the same

1208
00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:25,440
you cannot simply forget that digital

1209
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,000
things happened our democratic societies

1210
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:28,880
are changing

1211
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,960
and i'm going to end up on this one of

1212
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,319
the biggest problem that i see

1213
00:42:32,319 --> 00:42:33,760
particularly for central and eastern

1214
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:34,319
europe

1215
00:42:34,319 --> 00:42:36,000
is a major generational divide that is

1216
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,680
open as a result of it

1217
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,640
younger generation is a small cohort

1218
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,200
they don't have the numbers

1219
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,040
and people don't like to play games in

1220
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,520
which they cannot win

1221
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,359
if you're a young person and basically

1222
00:42:49,359 --> 00:42:50,800
you want to go for change in your

1223
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,880
country you have two options

1224
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,640
one is to go through change through the

1225
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,480
ballot boxes

1226
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,160
if this is not happened either you're

1227
00:42:58,160 --> 00:42:59,760
going to stay on the street most of the

1228
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,520
time basically try to show

1229
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:02,960
that what is important for him should

1230
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,560
happen or you're going to leave the

1231
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:05,520
country

1232
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,359
and believe me leaving the country is

1233
00:43:07,359 --> 00:43:09,040
much easier than the two previous

1234
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:10,079
options

1235
00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:11,920
so from this point of view i do believe

1236
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,839
probably we should think about

1237
00:43:13,839 --> 00:43:16,960
reducing uh the voting age we should try

1238
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:17,839
to see how

1239
00:43:17,839 --> 00:43:20,800
this major generation of these balances

1240
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,960
are going to be taken with

1241
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,000
because uh the last point

1242
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,319
of facts and type of appalling facts is

1243
00:43:28,319 --> 00:43:29,119
that

1244
00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:31,839
if you try to see the results of the

1245
00:43:31,839 --> 00:43:33,599
cambridge university

1246
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:35,119
institute for the future of democracy

1247
00:43:35,119 --> 00:43:37,119
which was done in 2020

1248
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:40,240
the younger people in the world

1249
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:42,079
are the one most dissatisfied with the

1250
00:43:42,079 --> 00:43:43,680
performance of democracy

1251
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,359
and millennials are much more

1252
00:43:45,359 --> 00:43:47,280
dissatisfied than the previous

1253
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,200
generations on the same age

1254
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:50,800
so from this point of view there is a

1255
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,200
big use problem but not simply in terms

1256
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:54,240
of the economy

1257
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:55,599
but on the terms of political

1258
00:43:55,599 --> 00:43:57,760
representation and this is a very

1259
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:58,880
distinctive generation

1260
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:00,800
listen they have been born in a digital

1261
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,400
world they experience the world

1262
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:03,760
differently than us

1263
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,520
so trying to empower the younger

1264
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,200
generation politically in my view is one

1265
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,640
of the major things that should happen

1266
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,240
i think that this discussion is is

1267
00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:13,280
immensely rich and it's

1268
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,280
multi-dimensional i think we we've got

1269
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:16,960
sort of seven minutes left or so

1270
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,040
um i think we need to to introduce

1271
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:20,880
another really big dimension to this

1272
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,640
discussion i mean i remember

1273
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,440
i'm a child of the 1980s uh in the sense

1274
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,760
i wasn't born in the 1980s unfortunately

1275
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,359
but i achieved my sort of political

1276
00:44:29,359 --> 00:44:31,599
maturity in in the 1980s and

1277
00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:33,839
the tail end of the cold war and one of

1278
00:44:33,839 --> 00:44:35,599
the arguments that you will hear

1279
00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:38,560
in this discussion as to why populations

1280
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,200
in established democracies have kind of

1281
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,520
lost a certain amount of faith is

1282
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:44,480
because unlike

1283
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,800
the generation i'm talking about the

1284
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:48,319
millennials prior to

1285
00:44:48,319 --> 00:44:50,319
to the millennials um people grew up

1286
00:44:50,319 --> 00:44:51,359
with a very

1287
00:44:51,359 --> 00:44:54,000
clear alternative you knew that there

1288
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,160
was this totalitarian empire

1289
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,079
and you knew it was very unpleasant to

1290
00:44:58,079 --> 00:44:59,280
live there if you

1291
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:00,960
wanted to hold different opinions or if

1292
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,040
you wouldn't simply follow

1293
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,760
the ideology of a totalitarian system

1294
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,760
and then that kind of disappeared

1295
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,560
um through the 90s and 2000s and there

1296
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:11,280
was really no

1297
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:12,960
you know there was only one way to look

1298
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,560
about democracy really and it was

1299
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:15,280
inwards

1300
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:16,880
and people because it's in the nature of

1301
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,400
democracy to be critical

1302
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,280
became self-critical and perhaps perhaps

1303
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:21,760
went

1304
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,920
to too much in that direction and failed

1305
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,920
to recognize the value of what they had

1306
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,880
but now of course um we do have a major

1307
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,720
neo-authoritarian rival in the in in in

1308
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:34,000
the form of china

1309
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,000
i wonder kalinda whether you believe

1310
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,920
that not that anyone would wish it to

1311
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:38,560
happen

1312
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,040
but given that there is this colossus

1313
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:42,319
out there in

1314
00:45:42,319 --> 00:45:44,480
in asia which has a very different way

1315
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,800
of of running a society

1316
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,960
is that a kind of you know a sort of

1317
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,520
load star it makes actual unity

1318
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,160
and a renewed sense of the value of what

1319
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,040
we have

1320
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,880
easier to sell to our populations

1321
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,319
well when we look at our own region um

1322
00:46:02,319 --> 00:46:05,040
people don't perceive china as much of a

1323
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:05,599
factor

1324
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:08,640
in terms of an example uh whether we

1325
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:09,839
talk about

1326
00:46:09,839 --> 00:46:14,000
the system uh or democracy they

1327
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,200
just perceive china as this huge country

1328
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:17,599
who

1329
00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:21,040
is becoming a player on world stage and

1330
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,200
uh there is desire i think on part of

1331
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,040
the population to make that

1332
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,680
uh relationship you know in terms of

1333
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:28,720
cooperation

1334
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:31,440
competition confrontation that is put in

1335
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:32,640
the context of

1336
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,960
the relationship with china towards more

1337
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,400
cooperation and

1338
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,960
of course people want security in their

1339
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,960
life and stability and this is why

1340
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,040
when you look at the polling results

1341
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,040
that we saw earlier

1342
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,079
that the most trusted institutions uh

1343
00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:51,839
are the armed forces the security forces

1344
00:46:51,839 --> 00:46:54,720
and uh partially the reason why we're

1345
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:56,240
seeing all of these uh

1346
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:58,319
developments is the sense of loss of

1347
00:46:58,319 --> 00:46:59,680
control which always

1348
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,280
provokes fear and then there is tendency

1349
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,280
in some countries to look at

1350
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,319
an autocratic form of government as

1351
00:47:08,319 --> 00:47:08,880
being

1352
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,160
uh more efficient in dealing with the

1353
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:13,920
current problems because they

1354
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,760
don't have uh the requirement of going

1355
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,359
through sometimes a lengthy

1356
00:47:19,359 --> 00:47:22,240
parliamentary procedure process etc

1357
00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:24,640
and of course most people want to see

1358
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,160
their problems sold

1359
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,559
overnight they everybody wants a better

1360
00:47:28,559 --> 00:47:29,520
life

1361
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,760
and in thinking about that they're also

1362
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:33,839
questioning the value of democracy which

1363
00:47:33,839 --> 00:47:35,520
we cannot ascribe to

1364
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,880
any uh geopolitical or geographical

1365
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,640
regions of talking about western

1366
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,440
democracy or indian democracy etc

1367
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,839
we have these common and universal

1368
00:47:45,839 --> 00:47:48,400
democratic values that need to be

1369
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,160
upheld but why our population

1370
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,400
you know why are people losing trust in

1371
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,240
government and institutions

1372
00:47:56,240 --> 00:48:00,079
uh in general it's uh the fact that

1373
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:02,079
as i said they want to see change

1374
00:48:02,079 --> 00:48:03,520
overnight in particular

1375
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,160
in central and eastern europe i think

1376
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,480
we're still not happy with the level

1377
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,640
of convergence that we have achieved

1378
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,280
with the rest of the european union

1379
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,680
so the efficiency of the governments is

1380
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:16,640
questioned

1381
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,319
in terms of not just democratic reform

1382
00:48:20,319 --> 00:48:22,720
but also being able to

1383
00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:25,040
implement the funding from the eu

1384
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:26,559
building infrastructure

1385
00:48:26,559 --> 00:48:29,839
and really providing for circumstances

1386
00:48:29,839 --> 00:48:32,000
for people to change

1387
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,880
ivan has mentioned demographic shifts

1388
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:35,280
and

1389
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,319
they are really quite worrisome in most

1390
00:48:38,319 --> 00:48:39,200
of our countries

1391
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,040
people young people are leaving

1392
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:42,960
countries not just for the lack of

1393
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,800
opportunities but

1394
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,920
also for disappointment that they feel

1395
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,359
in the system

1396
00:48:49,359 --> 00:48:51,839
and one of the reasons being that we

1397
00:48:51,839 --> 00:48:53,040
still have not

1398
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,640
dealt with corruption in an appropriate

1399
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:57,040
way

1400
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,559
we think tend to single out

1401
00:49:00,559 --> 00:49:03,200
some cases and focus on them but i

1402
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:03,760
haven't

1403
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,960
seen really a systematic attempt to

1404
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,359
deal with corruption at all levels in

1405
00:49:09,359 --> 00:49:10,400
our societies

1406
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,839
and secondly it's nepotism i asked a lot

1407
00:49:13,839 --> 00:49:15,599
of young people around the world

1408
00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:17,920
who come from croatia you know would you

1409
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,760
return to croatia and they say

1410
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,440
yes we would and we would ex

1411
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,640
accept even a smaller salary

1412
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,200
and a lower standard of living that we

1413
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,319
get in some

1414
00:49:30,319 --> 00:49:32,400
other countries but the problem is that

1415
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,000
we know

1416
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,440
that we will not get an equal chance an

1417
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,480
equal equal opportunity to compete for a

1418
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:41,040
job

1419
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,599
that nepotism is still there that there

1420
00:49:43,599 --> 00:49:46,079
are some people who are pre-ordained for

1421
00:49:46,079 --> 00:49:46,800
certain

1422
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,880
functions so that's the problem of the

1423
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,720
elites that they feel they have the

1424
00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:52,400
inherent right to power

1425
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,400
yes and i think that this is a problem i

1426
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:55,599
mean actually i spoke to francis

1427
00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:56,800
fukayama yesterday

1428
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,760
yeah um on a panel and he um he he's

1429
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,520
also referred to the sense of a gilded

1430
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:02,720
insider class

1431
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:04,480
which is very dangerous for democracy as

1432
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,240
you say because it's very dangerous

1433
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:07,760
that there is no way that they can make

1434
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,000
it through then this is where they start

1435
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:10,480
sort of

1436
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,480
gestating on the ideas and feeling and

1437
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:13,599
looking inwards we

1438
00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:15,280
literally have what well we have less

1439
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:16,559
than one minute left we have but i'm

1440
00:50:16,559 --> 00:50:17,760
going to live we're going to

1441
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,760
expand for just one minute and to ask

1442
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:21,440
everybody very briefly i wish this

1443
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,640
conversation could have gone on for two

1444
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:23,280
hours

1445
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,480
um do you expect in in a yes or no

1446
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,400
answer which you can extend for

1447
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,960
15 seconds i'll start with uh with

1448
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:31,680
neelam

1449
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,800
um do you expect that by mid-century

1450
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,760
um democracy will be in a healthier or

1451
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,680
less healthy state

1452
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:41,040
globally that is and you can talk about

1453
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,040
your own country than it is today in 15

1454
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,839
seconds neil um

1455
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,400
so i think it can be in a healthier

1456
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:49,040
state

1457
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,599
if we are willing to look inwards and

1458
00:50:51,599 --> 00:50:52,880
examine some of

1459
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,160
our prejudices and to be

1460
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:00,160
able to concentrate our energies

1461
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,280
on addressing problems in

1462
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,720
small bits you know in india we remember

1463
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:09,040
always that gandhi had propagated

1464
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:10,400
village republics

1465
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,040
because the macro system has failed us

1466
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:14,960
the u.n security council is neither

1467
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:16,160
representative

1468
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,440
nor does it function it could not meet

1469
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,280
for the current pandemic yes it can be

1470
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,520
better well neelam you'd like i did a

1471
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,200
handbook for democracies about china

1472
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:28,640
versus democracy and i

1473
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,160
recommended that india should be a

1474
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:31,599
permanent member of the security council

1475
00:51:31,599 --> 00:51:33,040
so we're friends i guess

1476
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,800
um damon um again in 15 seconds do you

1477
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,800
believe that by mid-century democracy

1478
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:40,319
globally and in the united states will

1479
00:51:40,319 --> 00:51:42,000
be healthier or less healthy than it is

1480
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,240
today

1481
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:46,240
i do believe it will be healthier we are

1482
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:48,880
going through a wrenching process of

1483
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,640
self-correction which is essentially

1484
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:51,839
renewal

1485
00:51:51,839 --> 00:51:54,079
and part of the part of what that can do

1486
00:51:54,079 --> 00:51:56,319
is catalyze renewal at home so that we

1487
00:51:56,319 --> 00:51:58,240
can work together as a free world to

1488
00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:00,880
end this democratic recession 15 years

1489
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,559
of democratic recession

1490
00:52:02,559 --> 00:52:04,880
an opportunity to turn the tables on the

1491
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:06,400
authoritarian march

1492
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,040
and to catalyze a new democratic wave

1493
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:09,920
but we start

1494
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,920
by showing that democracy delivers at

1495
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,800
home we show that the free society's

1496
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,640
free world can work together to counter

1497
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,000
the authoritarians

1498
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:19,599
and we've got to stand together in

1499
00:52:19,599 --> 00:52:21,839
supporting those small d democrats

1500
00:52:21,839 --> 00:52:23,920
on the front lines of freedom and that's

1501
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,480
a strategy for optimism for renewal

1502
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,119
for democracy being in a better place in

1503
00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:29,760
mid

1504
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:31,760
mid century well i'm great that you'll

1505
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,119
be bringing that to that message and

1506
00:52:33,119 --> 00:52:34,240
that way of looking the world to the

1507
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:35,760
national endowment for democracy which

1508
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,440
is an immensely important

1509
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,280
institution and congratulations again on

1510
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,160
the new job ivan uh our bulgarians are

1511
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:43,920
notoriously quite pessimistic people

1512
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,440
aren't they so are you going to

1513
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,520
be fulfilled the national stereotype are

1514
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,200
you also going to be optimistic about

1515
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,280
prospects for democracy by mid-century

1516
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:52,319
listen it's going

1517
00:52:52,319 --> 00:52:54,319
to be better in some places and worse

1518
00:52:54,319 --> 00:52:55,599
than others

1519
00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:58,480
okay that's hedging the bets kalinda oh

1520
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,079
i'm an absolute believer

1521
00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:02,960
in democracy to me there is no

1522
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,119
alternative and i think that most people

1523
00:53:05,119 --> 00:53:06,960
want democracy and the benefits of

1524
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:08,160
democracy but we

1525
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,200
have to be willing and able

1526
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,599
uh to adapt to the changing

1527
00:53:13,599 --> 00:53:15,359
circumstances in the world

1528
00:53:15,359 --> 00:53:18,720
and react to that um and be

1529
00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:21,839
proactive rather just then

1530
00:53:21,839 --> 00:53:26,000
trying to justify what we have done with

1531
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,559
the again as i said painting the reality

1532
00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:30,160
that is different from what people

1533
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,800
feel i'm taking this as an optimistic

1534
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,559
way to end uh the panel and i'd like to

1535
00:53:34,559 --> 00:53:35,040
thank

1536
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:36,640
everybody for joining us whether

1537
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,240
remotely in the audience and most

1538
00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:39,119
particularly

1539
00:53:39,119 --> 00:53:41,440
uh to the four members of the panel for

1540
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,359
for making such a great discussion in

1541
00:53:43,359 --> 00:53:44,960
such a short period of time please join

1542
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,040
me in thanking our panelists

1543
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,520
thank you

1544
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,970
and uh

1545
00:53:56,970 --> 00:54:02,629
[Music]