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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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ladies and gentlemen

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welcome to moderator of the last session

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at habsburg stage of the day one

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steve clemons

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[Music]

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hi everyone i'm steve clemens editor at

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large of the hill in washington dc i've

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been a

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regular attendee at globe sec here for a

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long time and this

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topic about digital health digital rules

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ethics in the digital space has been one

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that we've been dealing with

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at globe secure and body slava for many

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many years

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and i think what is what is happening is

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we've seen a robustness of the

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importance of this issue grow

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there are initiatives right now i should

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mention at globe sec

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titled transatlantic principles for a

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healthy online information space globe

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sec has

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has invested heavily in this uh and

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there are ten principles which perhaps

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we're going to be touching on a number

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of these

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i won't go through them here but what i

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will tell you is that about seven member

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nations 14 different large organizations

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have signed on to these principles and

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i'm told that down at the end of the

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hall

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just on this floor just down there there

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is a banner of these principles and if

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you believe kind of in this stuff

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now maybe you don't maybe you're one of

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the anarchists or you know

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you know kind of you know you know game

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this a different way you know and we

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want to hear from all sides

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but if you do believe in this sort of

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digital health digital principles

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working across borders and lines

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they've asked you to feel free to go

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down and sign that banner so

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let me encourage all of you to do that

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we have many many guests online as well

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and they should figure out a way to get

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you an opportunity to participate

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digitally online as well let me tell you

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who is joining us for our panel session

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our three panelists today are all

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virtual and i see all three of them here

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it's great to see david carroll i wasn't

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sure we're going to have him

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david carroll let me start out for a

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moment is the associate professor

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of media design at the parsons school of

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design in new york city

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he is probably one of the world's most

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important crusaders for data protection

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rights

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and i just want to put that on the table

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he has uh uh

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been the one who created the most

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significant criminal liabilities for

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cambridge analytica

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over his own voter rights profile it's a

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fascinating thing he was the subject

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of a netflix show called the great hack

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and so david it's great to see you here

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we also have with us renata nicolet

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is head of the cabinet for the vic in

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the vice president's office for values

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and transparency

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for the european commission in brussels

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she has a fantastic twitter feed i have

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to

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uh tell renate i've been enjoying your

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tweets all day i just know you have a

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great soul

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uh so please go take and we have marcus

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marcus reinish

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who's joining us also virtually he's

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vice president for public policy in

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europe for the middle east

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uh and africa so we've got different

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corners of this of this conversation

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here today

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and i'm going to try to keep looking at

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the camera where my guests are

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but all of you i'm going to tell those

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folks that are online you can

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participate and those in the room or

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those watching wherever file your

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questions

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uh in the globe sec app and i they will

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pop up on my little

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you know notepad here and we'll be happy

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to bring them to you those of you in the

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room

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can also pose questions and you'll just

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do so at the microphone

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i think the issue of starting with the

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questions you know i'm in media right

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and i've been watching media become more

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and more fragmented and the kind of

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division

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you know the discussion of what exactly

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is media uh

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is up for grabs today because there are

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a lot of players that do not have that

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that that dna of objective distance in

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them

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that notion of what public

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responsibility and accountability they

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should have

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that's just the media dimension but

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there are a lot of other players and

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there are platforms like we have at

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facebook uh twitter google but there are

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many many others as well

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and the rules across lines matter and

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how we kind of shape a world

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collectively together particularly as i

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see it in transatlantic relations

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dealing with some of the more insidious

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players uh that are out there is very

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important

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but let me ask david carroll to help set

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the stage if you would david

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you know i i i really respect what you

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did

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in sort of looking at the question of

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your own voter profile

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which which became part of the cambridge

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analytica story became part of a great

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series

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i'm interested in what you think or the

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top two or three equities we should keep

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in mind

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as we discuss this issue of digital

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health um

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and and and how to get it right as we

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move forward as opposed to just

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necessarily relitigating the past but

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give us your your your top of line

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thoughts

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well thanks steve it's great to be here

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uh glad i made it at the last

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uh minute um the big lessons learned

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out of okay great the big lessons

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learned

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um out of the cambridge analytical

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parable for the future

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is you know number one the need for a

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global standard

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for data rights the ability for bad

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actors to exploit

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the differences between data protection

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regimes

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is a significant problem and if we are

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to you know

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basically data does not respect borders

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it

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it emanates around the earth like an

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atmosphere

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so we have to understand it that way and

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we risk

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splinter net if we do not achieve a very

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strong global standard

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the second issue is you can have the

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greatest laws on the books

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but if they're not enforced they really

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don't matter that much

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and unfortunately in the case of

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cambridge analytica

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the ultimate victory of me achieving the

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full data request

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was achieved by an act of journalism

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because somebody leaked

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the database to journalists the data

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protection

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regulator was not able to fulfill their

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task

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so even the best data protection

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authorities

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don't have the tools or the skills or

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the resources

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to tackle the biggest challenges of the

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day and the future

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and then the last thing is the problem

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with my story

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is that it emphasizes this personal

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responsibility

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for one's own data but data is a

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collective issue and and privacy is a

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networked problem

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and so you know it is not my fault that

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i

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had a profile collected nor is it my

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fault that i spent huge amounts of money

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and many years

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trying to get get at the truth when

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really it affected

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every registered voter in the united

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states and we haven't really

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reckoned with the way that privacy

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invasions affect

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entire communities even

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well populations you for that david i

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want to encourage our three panelists to

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also feel free to react to one another

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as we weave through this i'm going to

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get to marcus in just a moment but

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um renata i want to ask you a question

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as you sort of look

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at this broad subject of kind of

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creating scaffolding and a platform

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and a safe space for people's digital

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uh rights and digital privacy and

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digital communications and

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you know just getting all of those

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features right one of the things that

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i've been thinking about here at

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globesec there's been a lot of

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discussion of china and russia

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when you think about tomorrow's global

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middle class

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and and david carroll just sort of

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referred to this in a way about the

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fears of a splinter net

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a lot of that is not going to future net

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added global value

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uh global middle class will not be in

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the transatlantic relationship it will

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not be in europe it will not be in the

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united states it's going to be in

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southeast asia it's going to be in asia

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proper it's going to be in africa

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and these are places that if you don't

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somehow bring them into this

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conversation

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if you did have a splinter net if you

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create rules that work in one place

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but china with it with its allies and

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its interests is not part of that

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don't you think we run the problem of

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we're going to get to the companies in a

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minute but the company is being left out

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to some degree

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of that growth but i would love to get

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your thoughts on what we need to get

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right because we often talk about

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setting rules up

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but we don't talk about what the

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economic consequences would be

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if you've got a divided world

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thank you steve for the question um

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indeed i think it's it's quite important

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to not forget

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the global dimension of what we do here

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because you know

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this digital transformation that we all

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live in uh is in the end something that

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will unite us all

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uh much more and and facilitate global

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conversations and that's why global

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convergence of rules

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is so important and i see a certain

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trend

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um in that direction i was very involved

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in the making of the general data

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protection regulation

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in the eu we were a first mover in that

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context

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and but nevertheless what we have seen

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in the three years since these new data

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protection rules

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have been in direct application is

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indeed

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a bigger convergence worldwide towards

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basic principles of data privacy and and

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00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:58,399
of course it's always good if

289
00:08:58,399 --> 00:09:00,240
transatlantically we can kind of show

290
00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,240
the way and today is a good talk

291
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:03,920
good day to talk about that because we

292
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,320
just had uh president biden

293
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,120
in town for an eu us summit and for a

294
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,000
nato summit

295
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,920
with very encouraging signals that the

296
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,200
u.s is back and

297
00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,440
transatlantic corporation is back but

298
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,440
what we are seeing globally is actually

299
00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,120
a convergence not only

300
00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,720
you know in in the us and in eu

301
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,200
but also in parts of asia uh for

302
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,839
instance we have in japan or in korea

303
00:09:27,839 --> 00:09:30,399
a very similar data protection regime so

304
00:09:30,399 --> 00:09:32,320
that we could kind of consider these

305
00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,399
these parties even also inadequacy

306
00:09:34,399 --> 00:09:35,760
findings on our side

307
00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,560
so our approach in europe is really to

308
00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:40,560
contribute to inspire others to

309
00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:42,560
contribute to a bigger convergence

310
00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:43,519
worldwide

311
00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:45,600
amongst allies let's not fool ourselves

312
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,440
there will be always you know uh

313
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:48,880
partners in the world

314
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:50,640
with hope it will be much more difficult

315
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,000
to align because

316
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,080
the basic principles of these strong

317
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:55,760
privacy rights is that you know the

318
00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:57,680
individuals in the center

319
00:09:57,680 --> 00:09:59,440
and you have your rights and you have to

320
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,279
enforce them and you have to defend

321
00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:02,720
yourself against that

322
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,040
and that's not shared across the globe

323
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,120
but i think if we are united and work

324
00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:08,880
you know in international forum whether

325
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:10,480
it's the united nations whether that's

326
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,760
the council of europe

327
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,680
uh to aim for a bigger convergence

328
00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:15,760
that's also in the interest not only of

329
00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,760
the citizens worldwide but also of

330
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,120
business worldwide

331
00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,279
bernat before i jump to marcus um and

332
00:10:21,279 --> 00:10:22,640
we'll have a little fun with i want to

333
00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,560
ask you a question a few years ago

334
00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:26,399
at the brussels forum sponsored by the

335
00:10:26,399 --> 00:10:27,760
german marshall fund

336
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,399
i interviewed your um i think it was the

337
00:10:30,399 --> 00:10:32,000
eu commissioner for a single digital

338
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,360
economy but he was very he was

339
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:34,720
responsible for some of the rules that

340
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:35,440
you wrote

341
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,680
uh in the gdpr which were just about to

342
00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:38,880
come online

343
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,320
and i and i was talking about how europe

344
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,800
uh regulated this sector differently of

345
00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,079
the united states

346
00:10:46,079 --> 00:10:48,160
and i said do you think in the rules and

347
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,320
regulations europe was putting forward

348
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,880
you would get a facebook uh being

349
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:53,360
birthed

350
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,480
in in europe or a google or a twitter

351
00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,560
and he said no and he said it on the

352
00:10:58,560 --> 00:10:59,760
record so i can say it

353
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,480
he said you americans innovate we

354
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:03,839
europeans regulate

355
00:11:03,839 --> 00:11:06,399
that's our social contract and so it was

356
00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:07,680
a provocative

357
00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:10,000
moment and so i just want to put that

358
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,600
back to you because that was your

359
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,040
minister who said that

360
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,160
and ask you what risks we what

361
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,680
what do we lose risk losing if we're not

362
00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:21,839
careful about how we homogenize those

363
00:11:21,839 --> 00:11:23,760
rules because part of this discussion

364
00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,760
is also the incredible innovation in

365
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:27,440
platforms that have developed in a

366
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:28,320
remarkably

367
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,920
uh short period of time and i just want

368
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:31,200
to acknowledge what the minister said

369
00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,560
back then but your thoughts real quickly

370
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:34,320
renata

371
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,320
yeah i think the the situation has

372
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,320
changed uh compared to a couple of years

373
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,000
ago where really in europe we just

374
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,920
discovered the digital single market as

375
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,760
a key kind of you know objective

376
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,320
on our side i think since then we have

377
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,079
quite an important discussion in europe

378
00:11:48,079 --> 00:11:49,519
about digital innovation

379
00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:51,680
even about digital sovereignty and we

380
00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:53,760
see a lot of very promising startup

381
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,000
activities and also a lot of investment

382
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,600
flowing into this and if you think about

383
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,000
the recovery now after covert 19

384
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,000
there's a lot of money also from the the

385
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,839
huge kind of recovery kind of money that

386
00:12:03,839 --> 00:12:05,200
we have put together in europe

387
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:06,720
to support our member states in the

388
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,320
recovery going into the digital

389
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:09,279
transformation

390
00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:10,959
so i would argue that you actually are

391
00:12:10,959 --> 00:12:13,200
faced today with a more assertive europe

392
00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:14,959
when it comes to actually uh you know

393
00:12:14,959 --> 00:12:16,560
also a catching up with the united

394
00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:18,959
states on the innovation side

395
00:12:18,959 --> 00:12:20,560
thank you marcus we're going to move to

396
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:22,320
you now and i want to say before i

397
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:23,760
mention another company other than

398
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,279
facebook a while back i had

399
00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:26,959
dinner with jack dorsey of twitter and

400
00:12:26,959 --> 00:12:28,720
it was a private thing to talk about

401
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,880
where the line ought to be and who

402
00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:31,839
should tweet should the

403
00:12:31,839 --> 00:12:33,519
with the president of the united states

404
00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:35,200
you know be de-tweeted

405
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:36,399
you know where do you where do you draw

406
00:12:36,399 --> 00:12:39,279
those lines how do you enter a world

407
00:12:39,279 --> 00:12:40,720
where you're beginning to make

408
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,320
censorship decisions

409
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,160
and i have to tell you and this is

410
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:45,360
honestly

411
00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,240
you could see the anguish in his face

412
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:49,519
and so i don't think we should take

413
00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:50,079
lightly

414
00:12:50,079 --> 00:12:51,600
these conversations because where you

415
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,440
put those lines matter but i

416
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,079
i want to ask you marcus about how you

417
00:12:56,079 --> 00:12:57,279
and facebook

418
00:12:57,279 --> 00:12:59,040
and i know you used to be at vodafone

419
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:00,639
you know this world well

420
00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:02,320
what are the ways in which we should be

421
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:03,920
thinking that we might not know as

422
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,839
you've approached some of the challenges

423
00:13:05,839 --> 00:13:07,680
of being one of the most popular

424
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:09,760
uh and one of the most impactful

425
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,920
platforms when it comes to political

426
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,839
discussions and political activism

427
00:13:13,839 --> 00:13:16,880
but marcus your thoughts

428
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:18,880
yeah so first thanks steve and uh

429
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:20,079
extremely warm hello

430
00:13:20,079 --> 00:13:23,040
to bratislava but uh where are you right

431
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,480
now by the way

432
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,800
i'm i'm sitting in just overlooking the

433
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,240
roofs of london that's where

434
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,920
i'm based and all right enjoying the

435
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,920
rest of the night we have

436
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,680
um but you know the anguish that you

437
00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:35,519
were describing that jack dorsey is

438
00:13:35,519 --> 00:13:37,040
displaying that's the anguish that that

439
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:37,839
i

440
00:13:37,839 --> 00:13:40,079
display as well almost on a on a daily

441
00:13:40,079 --> 00:13:41,279
basis because

442
00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:43,839
you know we are pushed towards decisions

443
00:13:43,839 --> 00:13:44,720
that are

444
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,880
ethically very very critical and the

445
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:47,760
question is really

446
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,079
who should make these decisions and and

447
00:13:50,079 --> 00:13:51,519
i think we've said this and i feel this

448
00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:52,160
personally

449
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,480
it it shouldn't be us it should be

450
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:55,440
democratic

451
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,639
uh elected um uh representatives it

452
00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:00,079
should be governments it should be

453
00:14:00,079 --> 00:14:02,000
um the european commission and and and

454
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,440
the co-legislators and

455
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,160
and i think it is um in a really really

456
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:07,920
delicate balance that you have to strike

457
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,000
you have to strike balances between

458
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,079
you know freedom of speech and harmful

459
00:14:12,079 --> 00:14:13,519
speech you have to strike a balance

460
00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:15,199
between safety and privacy you have to

461
00:14:15,199 --> 00:14:16,000
decide

462
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,160
what is truthful and what is deliberate

463
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:19,199
manipulation and

464
00:14:19,199 --> 00:14:22,079
and this is not i think a role that a

465
00:14:22,079 --> 00:14:23,040
private company

466
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,720
can ever play and i therefore

467
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,480
really really you know happy to see as a

468
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,320
european as a proud european

469
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,199
that we do have um a european commission

470
00:14:33,199 --> 00:14:34,959
a european institution that is actually

471
00:14:34,959 --> 00:14:36,560
going down this route that is creating

472
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:37,680
the frameworks

473
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,399
um of the you know what safeguards

474
00:14:40,399 --> 00:14:42,560
democracy what safe scout society and we

475
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:43,519
have sort of the

476
00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:45,680
the alphabet soup of the dsa and the

477
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:46,880
edap and

478
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,480
so on but but these are really

479
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:49,920
instruments that we need and i just want

480
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:50,800
to go back to

481
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,440
vice president ansip who said you know

482
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:54,639
america innovates and

483
00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:56,240
and europe regulates you know first

484
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,600
that's not true i don't recognize this

485
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,120
there's a lot of innovation going on in

486
00:14:59,120 --> 00:14:59,680
europe

487
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,279
but but even if it would be true you

488
00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:04,240
know europe has developed a muscle

489
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,399
of good and fair and cross-border

490
00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:08,000
regulation and i think it's a it's a

491
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,240
very good contribution to make however

492
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,560
europe by itself will not be strong

493
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,399
enough to build the frameworks the

494
00:15:14,399 --> 00:15:15,920
global standards that david was

495
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:16,800
preferring to

496
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,399
and it does need the transatlantic

497
00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:20,240
partnership with the us and i think

498
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:21,680
you know that president biden is

499
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,600
currently in brussels is a fantastic

500
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,040
sign and that there will be

501
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,040
much more cooperation to create a global

502
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,800
standard and a standard as well

503
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,279
that addresses i think the counter model

504
00:15:31,279 --> 00:15:32,720
that comes from china and i think that

505
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,399
is uh that is a concern for europe and

506
00:15:34,399 --> 00:15:36,079
for america in equal times

507
00:15:36,079 --> 00:15:38,240
let me uh i think david um has slipped

508
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:39,759
off i think he'll be back in a moment

509
00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:40,880
because i want to go back with a heavy

510
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:42,399
question but let me ask you both marcus

511
00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:43,440
and renata

512
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,720
uh one of my best libertarian pals from

513
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,399
germany has just walked in the door and

514
00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:49,279
so i have this

515
00:15:49,279 --> 00:15:50,880
you know sort of low rules you know

516
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:52,639
don't get too obsessed with government

517
00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:54,399
mindset in favor of my friend over here

518
00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:55,839
for a moment but as

519
00:15:55,839 --> 00:15:57,759
as i think about this question and i

520
00:15:57,759 --> 00:15:59,680
think i typically think about political

521
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,040
ecosystems as one

522
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,279
where the product of political pressures

523
00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:04,880
you know the political gravity takes us

524
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,000
to an outcome

525
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,880
and i'm wondering in this space uh i

526
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,480
used to think as a blogger and one of

527
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:11,680
the early political

528
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,720
bloggers in the in the early 2000s i

529
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,480
used to tell people i didn't worry about

530
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,720
alternative truth i didn't worry about

531
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:20,399
uh folks challenging faction i didn't

532
00:16:20,399 --> 00:16:21,759
worry about scandals

533
00:16:21,759 --> 00:16:24,079
and and and uh conspiracy theories

534
00:16:24,079 --> 00:16:26,959
because the internet at that time was so

535
00:16:26,959 --> 00:16:29,120
disciplining that people would jump in

536
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:30,079
quickly uh

537
00:16:30,079 --> 00:16:31,920
and fix and amend tell me where i was

538
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:33,839
wrong but you began to see

539
00:16:33,839 --> 00:16:36,000
tribes develop and bubbles and people

540
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,360
who had alternative

541
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,519
uh facts and i'm interested you know as

542
00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:40,639
both a platform

543
00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:43,040
and as a government official this is the

544
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,480
big question i think we're struggling

545
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:45,680
with at globe sec

546
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,320
that is elevating democracy democracy

547
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:49,600
saying we need healthy

548
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,839
standards to preserve democracy i

549
00:16:51,839 --> 00:16:53,680
sometimes wonder if you look out at a

550
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:54,880
great number of people

551
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,800
uh in all of our countries whether

552
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,720
democracies on their mind and rather

553
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,240
tribal auctocracies

554
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,000
where the rules are the way they want

555
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,079
them are just fine with them

556
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:06,240
so what does the what do the defenders

557
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:07,919
of democracy do

558
00:17:07,919 --> 00:17:09,599
when an increasing number of people

559
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:11,439
don't care about it let me ask

560
00:17:11,439 --> 00:17:13,359
renata and then and then marcus to

561
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,359
comment

562
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:16,959
well steve i think you're putting the

563
00:17:16,959 --> 00:17:18,720
finger in the wand i think you know we

564
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,079
have far too long

565
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:22,400
uh simply thought that we can take

566
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,760
democracy for granted

567
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,520
that it doesn't need to be nurtured

568
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,039
every day that it doesn't need to be

569
00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:27,919
defended

570
00:17:27,919 --> 00:17:30,080
by all of us every day and i think not

571
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:31,600
the least you know the events that we

572
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,039
saw on capitol hill in the beginning of

573
00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:35,120
january demonstrated that you know there

574
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:36,640
aren't sacred kind of you know

575
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,880
statutes of democracy we really have to

576
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,320
be out there to defend it

577
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,400
and the other part i would add is that

578
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,559
also your face as an early blogger

579
00:17:44,559 --> 00:17:46,240
you know that phase where everybody

580
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:47,600
thought oh this is all going to be a

581
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,200
bright future where we just connect

582
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:49,919
people

583
00:17:49,919 --> 00:17:52,320
uh that's over as well the naivety of

584
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:53,919
you know the digital transformation and

585
00:17:53,919 --> 00:17:54,960
it's only good

586
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:56,880
that's long over and i think what we are

587
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:58,799
struggling with is indeed to find the

588
00:17:58,799 --> 00:18:00,480
right balance between what you can

589
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:01,200
regulate

590
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:02,880
and what you can't regulate but where

591
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,799
you need to equip society in a whole

592
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:06,080
society approach

593
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,559
to be better prepared for it and um you

594
00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:10,000
know just to kind of explain a little

595
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,919
bit what we do in europe about that

596
00:18:11,919 --> 00:18:14,320
indeed as kind of democracy said we have

597
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:14,960
gone out

598
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,679
to kind of come with regulation but it's

599
00:18:17,679 --> 00:18:18,320
built

600
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,200
on a number of years of very strong

601
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,919
experience of self-regulatory approaches

602
00:18:23,919 --> 00:18:25,440
very close cooperation with the

603
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,000
platforms and you know in for instance a

604
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,080
code of conduct on online hate speech

605
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:31,760
or a code of practice against

606
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,400
disinformation that was very useful for

607
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,640
all sides to actually learn much more

608
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:37,600
from each other

609
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,000
and we have now kind of you know a

610
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:40,960
position to

611
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,360
regulate some things for instance to

612
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:45,600
regulate that platforms have to get rid

613
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,240
of illegal content online and if not

614
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,000
there are responsibilities and there are

615
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:50,720
sanctions

616
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,720
are coming with it but on the other hand

617
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,799
we also must admit that if we don't want

618
00:18:54,799 --> 00:18:56,160
to create censorship

619
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,000
and also pay tribute to authoritarian

620
00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,440
regimes in that regard

621
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,200
we need to kind of keep the internet a

622
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,280
free space and that means you cannot

623
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:03,840
regulate

624
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,679
everything there are limits to what you

625
00:19:05,679 --> 00:19:07,440
can do on disinformation with

626
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,679
clear regulation and that's where a core

627
00:19:09,679 --> 00:19:11,440
regulation approach comes in

628
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,360
and this is where europe has developed

629
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:14,640
or is about to develop

630
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,679
an interesting unique mix of regulation

631
00:19:17,679 --> 00:19:19,679
where it matters and co-regulatory

632
00:19:19,679 --> 00:19:20,720
approaches in

633
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,799
close cooperation with civil society

634
00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:24,000
with media with

635
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,000
you know platforms to actually address

636
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,080
the vulnerabilities of democracy so that

637
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:29,440
we are better equipped

638
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,600
when there are disinformation campaigns

639
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,200
whether they are malicious

640
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,600
you know coming from outside forces even

641
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,120
or whether they are just happening

642
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:38,799
because in the echo chambers that's what

643
00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:40,240
we risk

644
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,240
your candor is really appreciated marcus

645
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,840
let me ask you that that same question

646
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:44,880
but also ask

647
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,039
you know as facebook and your colleagues

648
00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:48,799
look at it you know these large major

649
00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:51,120
global transnational platforms

650
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:54,400
do you see yourself as a place where

651
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,320
you know you can have a federation of

652
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,080
tribes and that's fine

653
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,000
or do you see the democratic dimension

654
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,520
and the civil rights and the you know

655
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,120
the civic justice elements

656
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:07,120
of a democracy is sort of part of what

657
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,440
you're trying uh to inculcate with your

658
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:10,000
users

659
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,360
i'd be interested in whether that's one

660
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:12,480
of the points of tension you're

661
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:13,919
struggling with

662
00:20:13,919 --> 00:20:16,000
yeah yeah absolutely and i again i mean

663
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,000
i think i echo what reynard has said you

664
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:18,400
know we

665
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,159
we need frameworks and we're working on

666
00:20:20,159 --> 00:20:21,840
frameworks it's specific in europe we

667
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:22,480
need

668
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,200
co-regulation but we need actions from

669
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,720
platforms like us as well we have a

670
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,400
responsibility not just illegal we have

671
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,159
a moral responsibility to keep people

672
00:20:30,159 --> 00:20:32,159
safe to protect societies to protect

673
00:20:32,159 --> 00:20:35,360
um democracy and and what we do is

674
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:37,679
is obviously you know we tackle head-on

675
00:20:37,679 --> 00:20:38,880
misinformation

676
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,039
we tackle head-on hate speech we tackle

677
00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:42,960
head-on interference in elections and

678
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,720
now plenty of measures that we take you

679
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:45,600
know

680
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,280
um deleting millions of of fake accounts

681
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:50,240
every day of

682
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,720
expanding uh network of independent fact

683
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,480
checkers to identify misinformation

684
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:55,280
label it

685
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,320
demoted um that there's so much

686
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,400
that we can do and by doing this you

687
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,080
know back to your question david

688
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,600
is we we we we are actually creating

689
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:06,159
almost a

690
00:21:06,159 --> 00:21:09,039
a global standard for this um because we

691
00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:10,080
are the only

692
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,320
organization that has that global reach

693
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,799
but also we have a counter trend and and

694
00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:16,000
i think you mentioned this before

695
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,480
and maybe also accelerated to covet is

696
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:19,840
that we have much more assertive

697
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:20,400
governments

698
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,000
and they also become more assertive when

699
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,760
it comes to digital matters they come

700
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,200
become more assertive when

701
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,120
it becomes to content that should stay

702
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:28,400
on the platform and sometimes that

703
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:29,520
content is

704
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,360
regime critical content that is

705
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:32,799
opposition con that is a really

706
00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:34,480
difficult situation for us so

707
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,880
we have this tension of on the one side

708
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,640
across border service

709
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,600
that tries to reflect values of freedom

710
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,679
of speech of human rights and so on

711
00:21:43,679 --> 00:21:45,760
but we also have assertiveness

712
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:47,200
nationally and we also see a

713
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,240
fragmentation and we see this

714
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,240
fragmentation in europe you know we have

715
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,559
individual content laws while we're

716
00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:54,480
trying to work on a global network

717
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:55,919
on a european network and eventually

718
00:21:55,919 --> 00:21:57,600
hopefully in a global network but what

719
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:58,880
you mentioned is this tension is

720
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,880
inherent and it plays out

721
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,520
between our global community standards

722
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,039
which are the rules that allow

723
00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:06,640
what can be kept on the platform what is

724
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,480
taken off between

725
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,200
regional regulation and frameworks and

726
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:12,480
then national regulation and then

727
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,320
individual demands from

728
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,000
governments across the club so it's a

729
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,520
it's it's a very very difficult and

730
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:18,880
heavy mix for us

731
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,799
well thank you i think we've got david

732
00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:22,240
back online there's david

733
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,320
david while you were um away doing

734
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,799
something else i ask the question

735
00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:29,840
of whether people online or

736
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,559
increasingly in our nations our citizens

737
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:32,960
are

738
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,280
as obsessed with preserving democracy as

739
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,039
many people at this conference are

740
00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:38,880
and whether or not they want to see the

741
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,880
ascension of their tribe and a different

742
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,720
set of rules and they're not really

743
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,080
they're really not empathetic or

744
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,919
concerned across science and i know you

745
00:22:45,919 --> 00:22:47,280
are and i'm just interested as an

746
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:48,559
american citizen

747
00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:50,480
you know in this space do you worry that

748
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,320
bifurcation of interest that is out

749
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:52,880
there that

750
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,600
that design that we may uh we makes make

751
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,039
some mistakes i mean i i just

752
00:22:57,039 --> 00:22:58,720
i just you know as i sort of deal every

753
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,720
day in the media space and look the hill

754
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,320
is a very centrist place which means we

755
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:03,840
have all sides screaming at us

756
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,159
but when you kind of look at that you

757
00:23:06,159 --> 00:23:07,600
you see

758
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,159
very different uh gravitational force

759
00:23:10,159 --> 00:23:11,360
fields depending on where you are

760
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:13,280
politically how you think what matters

761
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,880
what you prioritize how you see the

762
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:15,600
world

763
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,880
and and as we talk about homogenizing

764
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,720
rules and systems that protect those

765
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,559
individuals who really don't care about

766
00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:24,080
that they care about their side winning

767
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,360
i'm just asking what your thoughts are

768
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,480
well thank you um yeah um it's no

769
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,600
coincidence that

770
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,559
um president biden's infrastructure plan

771
00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:35,679
is calling for

772
00:23:35,679 --> 00:23:37,520
improvements to broadband because i'm in

773
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,280
a rural area and i'm having trouble with

774
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:40,640
my internet here

775
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,760
um so even the basics still have a long

776
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:44,960
way to go but

777
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,080
with regards to you know just speaking

778
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,080
personally during the pandemic i

779
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,840
relocated to a rural area

780
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,080
and some of my neighbors you know have

781
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,919
opposing political views

782
00:23:55,919 --> 00:23:57,919
and so it's a really important moment to

783
00:23:57,919 --> 00:23:58,960
just meet

784
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,080
neighbors and reconnect we have a urban

785
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,520
rural divide in the u.s that is further

786
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,559
exacerbated by

787
00:24:06,559 --> 00:24:08,880
the the ways that social media and

788
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:09,919
digital marketing

789
00:24:09,919 --> 00:24:12,880
further segments us into like-mindedness

790
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:13,440
for

791
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,480
the purposes of better performing

792
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:17,520
advertising

793
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,919
measurements and so it takes individual

794
00:24:19,919 --> 00:24:22,240
citizens to kind of work against this

795
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,440
on very personal one-to-one ways

796
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,400
for me the reason to pursue the

797
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,559
cambridge analytica case

798
00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:33,120
was because i was very worried about the

799
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:35,520
way that advertising technology and

800
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,120
social media technology

801
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:39,520
and the military-industrial complex were

802
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,039
all converging

803
00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:44,000
uh to threaten the very notion of

804
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,279
self-governance

805
00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:47,679
and self-determination and so i wanted

806
00:24:47,679 --> 00:24:49,440
to lift a veil onto how

807
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,600
manipulation was occurring right there

808
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:52,720
on the surface

809
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,799
and below the surface so that people

810
00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:55,760
could see

811
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,240
and indeed when people see inside the

812
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,880
machine it is the most effective way

813
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,760
to limit its impact that once we can see

814
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:04,240
it

815
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,440
it is less effective

816
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,799
at dividing us let me thank you for that

817
00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:11,760
let me ask you all

818
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,679
uh another question i would mention i

819
00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:14,880
can remind you all you can

820
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,400
ask questions through the app someone

821
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:17,919
asked me a defense industry question

822
00:25:17,919 --> 00:25:19,200
which i'm not sure if it's but i'm going

823
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,799
to ask it if we have no others and you

824
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:22,159
can also ask questions here in just a

825
00:25:22,159 --> 00:25:23,679
little bit at the microphone

826
00:25:23,679 --> 00:25:26,799
but we have um a great innovator from

827
00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:28,640
slovakia sitting in here the ceo of

828
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:29,919
tachium he's a big

829
00:25:29,919 --> 00:25:32,000
giant in the artificial intelligence

830
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,000
world i remember talking to eric schmidt

831
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,360
of google at the time he said

832
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:36,480
i asked him how do you think you're

833
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,080
going to get the publics in our in our

834
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,919
world to trust ai

835
00:25:39,919 --> 00:25:42,159
and he says well ai is going to fix bad

836
00:25:42,159 --> 00:25:43,600
health diagnoses because

837
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,440
the health diagnostic system is so

838
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,360
horrible that'll be the other side

839
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:49,200
the other thing it will fix right away

840
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,600
is is identity theft and fraud

841
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:52,960
in financial he says they're going to be

842
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,919
practical ways that ai comes in and

843
00:25:55,919 --> 00:25:56,640
changes

844
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,520
the prospects and and welfare uh of

845
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:00,080
people

846
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,240
in this conversation you know as i

847
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,880
listened to marcus talk about

848
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,480
you know i don't know the hundreds of

849
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,000
thousands of people out there i don't

850
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:08,559
know how many

851
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:09,760
you've got you know basically getting

852
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,919
rid of the millions of bad messages and

853
00:26:11,919 --> 00:26:12,559
whatnot

854
00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:14,880
but it's an active thing you're having

855
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,679
to do

856
00:26:15,679 --> 00:26:17,440
to remove those messages and i'm just

857
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,200
interested in whether or not

858
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,679
we are locked in the wrong frame for

859
00:26:21,679 --> 00:26:23,360
thinking about this that a lot of this

860
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:26,080
online health could in fact be put in

861
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:26,559
place

862
00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:28,880
by the advances that are coming in ai

863
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,240
the advances that are coming in

864
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,880
can we can we build in to the systems

865
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:33,840
we're producing

866
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,919
something that more automatically

867
00:26:35,919 --> 00:26:38,000
produces healthy outcomes or

868
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,720
is that um is that naive of me marcus

869
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,120
well you know first you mentioned this

870
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:46,720
already the ai

871
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,799
system is not just there to help elites

872
00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:50,720
and to help take technology companies

873
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,799
it's there to help users and individual

874
00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:53,919
citizens and

875
00:26:53,919 --> 00:26:56,320
actually ironically the the place where

876
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,200
we deploy

877
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,120
the most sophisticated and most ai is

878
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:01,600
actually of determining and finding

879
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,000
um unto what content hate speech and so

880
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,279
on i mentioned 97

881
00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:06,880
of hate speech is detected before it is

882
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,480
reported that's done through ai so

883
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,520
so ai is already built

884
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,159
to benefit the user but there's no

885
00:27:14,159 --> 00:27:14,799
question

886
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:17,200
that it requires much more transparency

887
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,880
and and i agree here with with david you

888
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:19,200
know

889
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,720
that's the concern the concern it is a

890
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,000
black box and you don't know what's

891
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,039
going on in there and

892
00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:24,080
actually when you look at it it's

893
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,159
relatively simple if you look at your

894
00:27:26,159 --> 00:27:27,840
facebook news feed it's it's fairly

895
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,000
simple why things are ranked the way

896
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,559
the way they rank but i do believe that

897
00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:33,279
there is

898
00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:36,080
a need for for a framework to build sort

899
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,399
of the ethical element of ai

900
00:27:38,399 --> 00:27:40,080
and again i'm coming back to this this

901
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,840
is not something you can leave to

902
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,200
private companies i don't think that is

903
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,240
something you can leave to even

904
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,600
self-regulation

905
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,919
and therefore the attempts again here in

906
00:27:47,919 --> 00:27:48,640
europe and

907
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,039
europe is a is a leader in these things

908
00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:53,120
is extremely welcome to have

909
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,080
a framework of how ai should be deployed

910
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,200
by companies

911
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,960
uh but also actually by public bodies

912
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,240
because it's not it's not just

913
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,880
it's not just us who deal with sensitive

914
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:03,600
data and

915
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,360
i would argue that actually some of the

916
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:06,640
the public institutions

917
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,480
um to think about health organization

918
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,080
health services um have much more

919
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,720
sensitive data that with ai has has

920
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,399
potentially concerning outcomes so

921
00:28:16,399 --> 00:28:19,279
i think tackling it through the um

922
00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:20,880
through a regulatory framework an open

923
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,640
transparent regulatory framework

924
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,279
um while at the same time putting an

925
00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:27,120
onus on on companies like ours to be

926
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:28,640
transparent and then to actually also

927
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,600
recognize

928
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,440
um that ai is something that is used for

929
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,120
for for you this is not to polarize

930
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:37,039
people uh not to keep people on the

931
00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:37,520
platform

932
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,480
as often often alleged because we're an

933
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:41,679
advertisement business

934
00:28:41,679 --> 00:28:43,600
you know we have advertisers that don't

935
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,440
want to see the advertisement next to

936
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:46,960
polarizing content so there is an

937
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:47,679
incentive

938
00:28:47,679 --> 00:28:50,320
to use ai for good and not for bad well

939
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:50,880
before i

940
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,039
before i jump to renate ask her the same

941
00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:54,159
thing about ai

942
00:28:54,159 --> 00:28:56,640
and how europe uses it say opposed to as

943
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,520
opposed to china or how facebook uses

944
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,200
facial recognition as opposed to how

945
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,960
china uses facial recognition

946
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,880
marcus let me ask you one other question

947
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,880
you know facebook has made the decision

948
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,880
to say bye-bye to president trump for a

949
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,159
couple of years

950
00:29:10,159 --> 00:29:12,159
and you went through a process for doing

951
00:29:12,159 --> 00:29:14,559
that there are a lot of other autocratic

952
00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:17,360
leaders who i remember when emanuel

953
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:18,000
macron

954
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,039
spoke to globesec and he said very

955
00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:21,919
bluntly in

956
00:29:21,919 --> 00:29:24,960
english the populists in europe are

957
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,799
lying to their citizens

958
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:28,799
and so i'm interested in whether that

959
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:30,640
decision on donald trump

960
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,200
leads to the necessary banning of other

961
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,080
leaders

962
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,559
who uh mimic some of those behaviors

963
00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:37,679
what are your thoughts real quick and

964
00:29:37,679 --> 00:29:39,200
then we'll jump to

965
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,120
look at all our policies before the

966
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,640
decision on trump you know

967
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,320
never allowed that public figures can

968
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,159
incite violence i mean that's that

969
00:29:46,159 --> 00:29:47,600
there's not necessarily a change to our

970
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,200
policy but definitely

971
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,559
what happened on the 6th of january in

972
00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:53,279
the us is obviously a pivotal moment

973
00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:55,200
and we had to make this drastic decision

974
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,640
and it was the right decision and as you

975
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:57,440
rightly say

976
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,279
this was a fundamental decision which we

977
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:00,720
put in front of our external

978
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,120
independent oversight board and and they

979
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,480
came back and they said

980
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,799
look number one your decision was right

981
00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:08,080
yeah you had to

982
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,279
take trump off the platform number two

983
00:30:11,279 --> 00:30:13,200
banning him indefinitely that is more

984
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,120
problematic because there is not you

985
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,200
processed it not transparent why you did

986
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:17,840
that

987
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,159
and back to you you need to find a

988
00:30:20,159 --> 00:30:21,360
transparent process that you need to

989
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:22,559
communicate properly so

990
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:24,159
that that's where we that's where we

991
00:30:24,159 --> 00:30:26,159
ended up in there but what we do as a

992
00:30:26,159 --> 00:30:27,679
response to the decision of the

993
00:30:27,679 --> 00:30:29,840
oversight board is to create standards

994
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:30,880
for public figures

995
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,240
that don't just apply to one public

996
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,919
figure to ex president trump but

997
00:30:33,919 --> 00:30:34,960
actually apply

998
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,520
to all politicians to all public person

999
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:38,960
who potentially abuse

1000
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,240
the ability of the platform to

1001
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,320
communicate and thereby trying to

1002
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,799
incite violence and cause harm thank you

1003
00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:46,320
for that renato let me ask you to

1004
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:47,120
comment about

1005
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,000
ai and technologies as you see them i

1006
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:50,320
mean

1007
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,240
brad smith who's also speaking here the

1008
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,080
president of microsoft wrote about

1009
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,960
advances in technology as tools or

1010
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:57,840
weapons

1011
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,120
and so we're talking about things that

1012
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,360
can be used either way but but tell us

1013
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:02,640
how you think about

1014
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,039
you know ai and other uh techniques

1015
00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:06,000
coming into

1016
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,000
the system to help perhaps right the

1017
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,919
ship when it comes to digital health

1018
00:31:09,919 --> 00:31:12,399
and digital privacy and you know digital

1019
00:31:12,399 --> 00:31:15,919
accountability and responsibility

1020
00:31:15,919 --> 00:31:18,240
i strongly believe that we need to kind

1021
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,399
of structure systems where technology

1022
00:31:20,399 --> 00:31:21,039
serves

1023
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:23,360
the people and not the other way around

1024
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,080
and for instance we are already using ai

1025
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,640
systems very well today in kind of you

1026
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,399
know putting order on the internet when

1027
00:31:30,399 --> 00:31:32,000
it comes to illegal behavior

1028
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,679
there has been even a couple of years

1029
00:31:33,679 --> 00:31:36,159
back a global initiative

1030
00:31:36,159 --> 00:31:38,799
to fight against child sexual abuse

1031
00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:39,600
online

1032
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,799
and here ai kind of was the solution to

1033
00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:44,320
actually detect the photos

1034
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,039
very very rapidly so to just to show you

1035
00:31:47,039 --> 00:31:49,279
that you know even before the hype on ai

1036
00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:50,000
regulation

1037
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,240
uh started emerging we've been actually

1038
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,399
using it to put order in the wild west

1039
00:31:54,399 --> 00:31:55,679
of the internet

1040
00:31:55,679 --> 00:31:58,080
but indeed in europe we have also put

1041
00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:59,840
regulation on the table

1042
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,039
the so-called ai act which is very much

1043
00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:05,679
driven by the idea of having you know

1044
00:32:05,679 --> 00:32:08,559
an ethic by design a human-centric

1045
00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:09,600
approach in ai

1046
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,240
because we want to use the chances of

1047
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,080
this technology we want to have better

1048
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,679
health we want to have solutions on

1049
00:32:15,679 --> 00:32:17,840
mobility that are more adapted to our

1050
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:18,399
needs

1051
00:32:18,399 --> 00:32:20,240
we want to use it in all sectors we also

1052
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,000
want to kind of catch up with regard to

1053
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,360
the huge investments

1054
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:24,960
that are already happening in the u.s

1055
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,480
and in china on ai

1056
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,399
and this is a collective exercise with

1057
00:32:28,399 --> 00:32:30,159
member states that's what member states

1058
00:32:30,159 --> 00:32:31,679
want to do with us in the eu

1059
00:32:31,679 --> 00:32:32,640
institutions

1060
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,039
but it's very clear that we have to take

1061
00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:36,880
a different approach from some of our

1062
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,159
partners in the world

1063
00:32:38,159 --> 00:32:40,720
we don't want social scoring like in

1064
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:41,279
china

1065
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:43,360
we don't think that this is kind of now

1066
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,120
something that we want in the european

1067
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:45,840
area

1068
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,159
so we have made a choice in this ai act

1069
00:32:48,159 --> 00:32:50,320
to also say there are risky areas

1070
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:51,840
where we either want to have a high

1071
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,159
level of regulatory observation

1072
00:32:54,159 --> 00:32:56,240
and supervision because it can really

1073
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:57,840
turn it around when you're talking for

1074
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,159
instance on using ai in recruitment

1075
00:33:00,159 --> 00:33:03,440
or in public services you know

1076
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,640
that and if you want to have a

1077
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,559
sustainable growth kind of

1078
00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:09,200
perspective on ai technology that is

1079
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:10,000
really

1080
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,240
trustful and that kind of consumers and

1081
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:13,440
citizens in europe

1082
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,440
fully have trust in then you need to

1083
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,360
build it in from the beginning as we

1084
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,120
have done with privacy because the whole

1085
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,200
concept of the data protection rules

1086
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,279
was to have a privacy by design

1087
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:25,200
innovation and that's what we are trying

1088
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,840
to kind of repeat with the ai act very

1089
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:28,880
much driven by

1090
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,200
we want to support innovation but in

1091
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,399
areas where we

1092
00:33:32,399 --> 00:33:34,720
think they might be high-risk areas we

1093
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,039
want to supervise a bit more thoroughly

1094
00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:38,960
and as this is a technological

1095
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:40,799
revolution that is kind of changing

1096
00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:42,799
every day where nobody of us has the

1097
00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:44,799
real kind of concept for the next 10

1098
00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:47,440
years it has to be a flexible concept

1099
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,840
where we can also add high-risk sectors

1100
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,440
that only emerge when we see the

1101
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:52,799
applications coming

1102
00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:54,880
so it's really an interesting way of

1103
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,000
dealing with

1104
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,559
a regulatory challenge but it's it's a

1105
00:33:58,559 --> 00:34:00,799
very common and united kind of front

1106
00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:02,000
that has building up

1107
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,240
here in the eu where we say what we want

1108
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,519
where we want to lead the way

1109
00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:07,519
hopefully inspire others but also make a

1110
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:09,520
clear kind of difference between us and

1111
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:10,480
others

1112
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,079
right and so just a few minutes we're

1113
00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:14,000
going to go to uh questions again

1114
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,918
there's some good ones being populated

1115
00:34:15,918 --> 00:34:17,679
uh over the app and i'll invite people

1116
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:18,719
up to the mic here and we'll go as

1117
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:19,918
quickly as you can but let me just

1118
00:34:19,918 --> 00:34:22,000
finally ask david a question and and

1119
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,918
i don't know exactly how to ask this but

1120
00:34:23,918 --> 00:34:25,359
i'm going to you know david if you know

1121
00:34:25,359 --> 00:34:26,800
with our colleague and our friend here

1122
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,560
from from facebook facebook has

1123
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,440
developed

1124
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,560
community standards it has uh signed on

1125
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,560
it's one of the signatory two codes of

1126
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:35,760
practice it has

1127
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,839
made decisions that we've seen about you

1128
00:34:37,839 --> 00:34:39,679
know political ads twitter and other

1129
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:41,280
places have done this as well

1130
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,918
but marcus has shared with us today that

1131
00:34:43,918 --> 00:34:46,000
that companies even leagues of companies

1132
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,079
cannot do this on their own they need

1133
00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:49,839
governments they need partnership

1134
00:34:49,839 --> 00:34:51,520
to do this and i'm just interested in

1135
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,359
that legal scaffolding if you look at

1136
00:34:53,359 --> 00:34:54,639
the united states

1137
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:56,800
the united states still does not have a

1138
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,560
national privacy standard

1139
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,800
europe does california does but the

1140
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,240
united states is not there a lot of

1141
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:03,680
things that europe has moved ahead just

1142
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:04,960
to go back to that minister

1143
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,320
and jumped ahead with regulatory

1144
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,720
approaches that the u.s government has

1145
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:09,920
not done

1146
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,160
uh and i'm just interested since you

1147
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:13,920
spent so much money

1148
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,440
fighting for your rights in the american

1149
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,599
legal system just real quickly what's

1150
00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:19,119
missing what could help

1151
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:21,359
move forward and i'm not talking about

1152
00:35:21,359 --> 00:35:22,960
companies i'm talking about

1153
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,920
public policy washington d.c what what

1154
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,880
needs to be there that's not

1155
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,119
sure thank you um and hopefully my

1156
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:32,079
connection will hold

1157
00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:35,359
um the the key issue the one correction

1158
00:35:35,359 --> 00:35:37,359
i would make is i didn't spend a dollar

1159
00:35:37,359 --> 00:35:39,119
of legal effort in the united states i

1160
00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:41,280
spent it all in the uk

1161
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,720
because the the uk and europe has

1162
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:47,599
the basic right to one's own data the

1163
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:48,800
right to know

1164
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,800
and we don't have this right in the

1165
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:51,920
united states

1166
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,119
now it's available in california and

1167
00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:57,599
most recently the state of virginia

1168
00:35:57,599 --> 00:36:00,320
this is the most basic building block to

1169
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:00,800
solve

1170
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,720
many of the above conversations

1171
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:04,400
especially the one that was just

1172
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,119
going on regarding ai and accountability

1173
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:08,480
of ai

1174
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,520
the key idea that we tried to challenge

1175
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,640
was the requirement of the company to

1176
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,160
disclose

1177
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,640
um all of the key aspects of

1178
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,280
and uh

1179
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:28,800
oh no you're back you're back keep going

1180
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,040
david keep going keep going

1181
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,560
i see you um thank you i'll try to get

1182
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:35,119
it out

1183
00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:37,440
um that the key aspects of the cambridge

1184
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:38,480
analytica case

1185
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,960
was how did they build these profiles

1186
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,440
where did they get the data sources from

1187
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,680
how did their algorithms work under the

1188
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,599
uk law they were required to disclose

1189
00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:50,000
that and they managed to conceal it

1190
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,079
so we still have a lot of work to do in

1191
00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:53,839
enforcing the transparency that's

1192
00:36:53,839 --> 00:36:55,599
already mandated in europe

1193
00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:57,920
and how to build similar requirements in

1194
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,320
the united states and other countries

1195
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,280
that are working on regis regulation to

1196
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,119
create this global standard

1197
00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:07,359
to create the adequacy of international

1198
00:37:07,359 --> 00:37:10,079
trade but the fundamental bedrock is the

1199
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:11,599
right to know

1200
00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:14,800
and we have so much work to do to make

1201
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,720
that visible to individuals

1202
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:20,079
a key moment that i'll try to

1203
00:37:20,079 --> 00:37:23,920
capture uh was when channel 4

1204
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,640
showed a voter a black voter a black

1205
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,240
woman in wisconsin

1206
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:30,800
and showed her her voter profile and

1207
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,200
showed how she was marked for deterrence

1208
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,520
to be discouraged from participating in

1209
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,280
the 2016 election

1210
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,880
and when she saw that her response was

1211
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,680
this makes me want to vote even more

1212
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:44,560
meaning in the

1213
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,800
2020. and so the simple transparency

1214
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,320
of what is behind the screen i think is

1215
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,920
the most important thing that we need to

1216
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:54,400
achieve

1217
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,760
first and then all other data protection

1218
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,320
issues and ai issues and ethical issues

1219
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,160
and regulatory issues

1220
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,680
sit upon that we need to make

1221
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,320
the data rights issues central to these

1222
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:09,680
conversations

1223
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,359
thank you so folks what we're going to

1224
00:38:11,359 --> 00:38:13,040
do now i'm going to ask you to be as

1225
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,119
brief as possible so that we can kind of

1226
00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:17,520
cook through some of these questions let

1227
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,440
me start with one from joe just to talk

1228
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,119
about bottom line issues this is an

1229
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:22,160
interesting question i hadn't thought

1230
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:22,960
about before he says

1231
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,119
from an ontological point of view do you

1232
00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:26,560
believe there's something like a

1233
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:27,599
universal

1234
00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:30,480
global norm of freedom of expression

1235
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,000
including limitations renata your

1236
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,839
thoughts real fast

1237
00:38:33,839 --> 00:38:35,760
well we have you know international you

1238
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,320
know human rights standards even in the

1239
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,400
united nations and their freedom of

1240
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,079
expression is clearly included and

1241
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:43,599
that's why you know i would say there's

1242
00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:46,000
already quite a global convergence on

1243
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,760
the importance of freedom of expression

1244
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,520
where we differ a little bit is you know

1245
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,440
whether that's absolute or how it can be

1246
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,200
reconciled with other interests such as

1247
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:54,400
security

1248
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:55,760
marcus i think you you would have

1249
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,520
thoughts on that is there a

1250
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,520
kind of universal building block in when

1251
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,359
when when uh

1252
00:39:01,359 --> 00:39:03,040
mark zuckerberg put this all together

1253
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,040
was there sort of a unit of belief in

1254
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,640
that element of expression

1255
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,079
that was part of the dna of your

1256
00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:10,560
platform

1257
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,880
yeah it's the same answer you know that

1258
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,560
there are global standards

1259
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,720
the the issue is here that we have

1260
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:18,320
either a lack of enforcement you know

1261
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:19,839
coming back to david's theme

1262
00:39:19,839 --> 00:39:22,880
on on privacy or or a different

1263
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,480
interpretation and sometimes the

1264
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:25,520
interpretation is

1265
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,440
is is that people don't recognize some

1266
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,040
of these human rights and these rights

1267
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:30,320
of freedom of speech

1268
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,440
but also i think more subtly um and i

1269
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:34,960
think renate made the point already is

1270
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:35,680
that

1271
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,359
the absoluteness of them and i think

1272
00:39:37,359 --> 00:39:38,880
it's just a you know as a european

1273
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,320
working for an american company you know

1274
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:40,720
there's

1275
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:43,599
there's a different um ranking of where

1276
00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:45,359
freedom of speech stands where

1277
00:39:45,359 --> 00:39:47,280
the integrity of the individual stands

1278
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,119
and and i think this this this is normal

1279
00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:49,760
because

1280
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,800
speech is a cultural thing and sometimes

1281
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,200
it's impossible to really have

1282
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,359
deep frameworks that cover everything

1283
00:39:57,359 --> 00:39:59,040
and they go across the globe

1284
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:00,960
so it's a big big challenge and back to

1285
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,560
the question you asked before radio does

1286
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,160
i i think you know

1287
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,560
we we we we have to hold on to global

1288
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:07,680
standards in our

1289
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,319
in our community standards but that is

1290
00:40:10,319 --> 00:40:12,160
that is challenged on a daily basis

1291
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:13,760
of course what's going through my mind

1292
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,280
right now is belarus

1293
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,200
and what we saw happen to a blogger and

1294
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,040
pulling down a plane who actually had

1295
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:20,720
that universal right of expression

1296
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:22,240
just going through my head right now we

1297
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:23,839
got a question right here yes go ahead

1298
00:40:23,839 --> 00:40:24,880
hi i'm ayman

1299
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,319
from lebanon i run a freedom of

1300
00:40:26,319 --> 00:40:27,680
expression organization in the mena

1301
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:28,160
region

1302
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,880
how's it going oh badly this is why i'm

1303
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,640
asking uh marcus

1304
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,720
um you mentioned the great progress that

1305
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:36,240
facebook made in terms of fighting this

1306
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:37,599
information through fact-checking

1307
00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:38,400
networks

1308
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,400
uh fighting election interference and

1309
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:41,760
fighting hate speech

1310
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,960
well i'm inspired by a great book be war

1311
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,599
beware of small states by david hurst to

1312
00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:48,560
ask you about

1313
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,560
supporting democracy where it's more

1314
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,000
fragile where it's less

1315
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,480
established where it needs to be further

1316
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:55,200
nurtured

1317
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:56,640
yes there is progress in terms of

1318
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,720
disinformation in other languages

1319
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:00,640
but specifically election interference

1320
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:01,760
in smaller countries

1321
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,160
and fragile democracies right under your

1322
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:05,440
jurisdiction tunisia

1323
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,720
algeria iraq lebanon horrible uh

1324
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:10,800
information marketplace same for hate

1325
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,880
speech and uneven level of attention

1326
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,480
right during the israel-palestine latest

1327
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,079
conflict right the attack by the horde

1328
00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:18,240
of supporters of muhammad bin salman

1329
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:20,560
so what are you doing to these more

1330
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:21,920
fragile countries

1331
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,839
in languages that are not as widely

1332
00:41:23,839 --> 00:41:25,280
represented on the internet as

1333
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,760
english and other major languages these

1334
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,680
are the places where democracy is most

1335
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,119
fragile and where we need to support it

1336
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:31,520
the most

1337
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:32,720
great question thank you let me ask

1338
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:36,720
david carroll for his thoughts david

1339
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,520
david david is um looking good

1340
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,359
but we're going to jump over to renata

1341
00:41:43,359 --> 00:41:45,359
renata your thoughts and david if you

1342
00:41:45,359 --> 00:41:46,400
can hear me

1343
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,920
you can jump in when you come back and

1344
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,720
you're moving again okay renata

1345
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:53,359
huh yeah a very big question i mean uh

1346
00:41:53,359 --> 00:41:55,040
all i can say there is that

1347
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,200
um indeed i one of the of the issues

1348
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,440
that we and also in our code of practice

1349
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,119
uh where we are working where we've been

1350
00:42:01,119 --> 00:42:02,800
working in the past years with

1351
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,440
platforms such as facebook we have

1352
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:06,960
always made the point that it's so

1353
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:08,960
important not to do this only uh

1354
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,119
in certain uh jurisdictions but of

1355
00:42:11,119 --> 00:42:12,880
course we had an uh you know an eu

1356
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,720
perspective but already in the eu as you

1357
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:15,599
know very well

1358
00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:17,280
we have smaller states and bigger states

1359
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,280
and different kind of languages

1360
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,079
going outside of the eu um i mean we are

1361
00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:24,319
very clear in our kind of cooperation

1362
00:42:24,319 --> 00:42:25,839
with especially partners in the

1363
00:42:25,839 --> 00:42:27,599
neighborhood and that also includes the

1364
00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:28,880
southern neighborhood and the countries

1365
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,319
that you were referring to

1366
00:42:30,319 --> 00:42:31,920
that we want to kind of you know also

1367
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,440
engage with partners there

1368
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,280
to address the challenges of the digital

1369
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,359
transformation and here also this is

1370
00:42:37,359 --> 00:42:39,920
the disinformation but of course we

1371
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,359
cannot regulate there

1372
00:42:41,359 --> 00:42:43,599
so what we can do is that to really

1373
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:44,400
equip us

1374
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,480
with our kind of initiatives that i have

1375
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:47,680
tried to explain

1376
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,079
uh to inspire others so that also other

1377
00:42:50,079 --> 00:42:51,599
can kind of build on that but

1378
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:53,599
uh yeah otherwise you know yeah i

1379
00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:54,880
understand the problem

1380
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,359
great thank you david did you hear the

1381
00:42:57,359 --> 00:42:58,960
the question

1382
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,319
uh it was uh regarding um the

1383
00:43:02,319 --> 00:43:04,560
international fragile democracies and

1384
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:05,760
yes yes yeah yeah

1385
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,359
so we went to you first but you just

1386
00:43:07,359 --> 00:43:08,880
stared at us so yeah

1387
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,920
yeah i'm sorry yeah my my my bad

1388
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,680
connection today we i'm gonna have

1389
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,520
martin call you up and get facebook to

1390
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:16,000
help you

1391
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,280
you know um yes

1392
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,119
i think that the small state issue is

1393
00:43:21,119 --> 00:43:22,400
extremely important and

1394
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,359
goes back to the question of a universal

1395
00:43:25,359 --> 00:43:27,119
data protection

1396
00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:30,000
um shield across the world that small

1397
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,040
states are also exploited by bad actors

1398
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,760
uh for abusive practices or to offshore

1399
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:36,079
and

1400
00:43:36,079 --> 00:43:39,280
lo and laundered de heda so for example

1401
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,359
the the last thing that we learned from

1402
00:43:41,359 --> 00:43:43,040
the investigation into cambridge

1403
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:43,760
analytica

1404
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,119
is that they were in the process of

1405
00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:47,200
offshoring to saint kitts

1406
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,640
and nevins using the caribbean to shield

1407
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:51,520
themselves from

1408
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,040
data protection laws so we need to

1409
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,240
understand that every citizen

1410
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:00,640
in every country deserves equal

1411
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:01,760
protection

1412
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,160
under an equal set of of laws and rules

1413
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,079
and then the problem that we also need

1414
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:10,800
to address is that advertising supported

1415
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,160
public interest platforms are inherently

1416
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,240
there's a tension there that what is

1417
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:18,640
good for a brand may not be good for

1418
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,160
a public society and there are arguments

1419
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:23,680
that the brand

1420
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,280
creates an incentive to be good for

1421
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,920
society but not at the expense of profit

1422
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,079
so there are we need more public

1423
00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:32,160
interest platforms to compete with the

1424
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:33,839
commercial ones and that's a huge

1425
00:44:33,839 --> 00:44:34,800
challenge

1426
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,800
marcus can i thank you that marcus can i

1427
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,240
ask you

1428
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:39,760
to share your thoughts with that but we

1429
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:41,680
also have a question here from ivan

1430
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,760
uh that's come in online and he

1431
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,160
basically wonders to what degree

1432
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,160
is it's not like a small nation problem

1433
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,920
but it's a small you know company a

1434
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:50,800
small everybody

1435
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:52,000
question if you don't have the

1436
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,160
technological sophistication

1437
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,119
or the money uh to invest in the kind of

1438
00:44:57,119 --> 00:44:59,359
protections we're talking about today

1439
00:44:59,359 --> 00:45:01,280
he's just wondering whether that you

1440
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,440
know is is something where

1441
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,880
the bad guys and the villains always win

1442
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,640
and and i guess i would ask you i know

1443
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,160
someone in this room right now

1444
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,160
who has you know one of the largest uh

1445
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,640
followings on facebook from palestine

1446
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,400
particularly among young youth

1447
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,079
and you know believe me mahmoud abbas

1448
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:20,000
doesn't like this guy you know he's

1449
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,839
anti-corruption and pro-democracy and

1450
00:45:21,839 --> 00:45:23,680
mobas has overstayed his term by 12

1451
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:24,240
years

1452
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:26,079
so when you look at that he's got a

1453
00:45:26,079 --> 00:45:27,359
whole farm

1454
00:45:27,359 --> 00:45:29,520
of people that that government and the

1455
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:30,400
egyptians

1456
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,480
have aimed at him and every digital

1457
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:33,680
thing he does

1458
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,920
and and i and and and even facebook has

1459
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,520
been in this story to somewhat so i i'm

1460
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:37,839
just

1461
00:45:37,839 --> 00:45:40,880
interested in how even if facebook can

1462
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:41,680
deal with

1463
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,200
government actors trying to undo the

1464
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:46,960
rights of those people who were worried

1465
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,119
about democracy and anti-corruption

1466
00:45:49,119 --> 00:45:51,040
and trying to take how do we help the

1467
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,720
little guys succeed

1468
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:54,720
against the resources of governments

1469
00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:56,400
that actually don't want

1470
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,839
the values we're talking about today

1471
00:45:58,839 --> 00:46:00,000
marcus

1472
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,920
yeah i mean we can't be naive about this

1473
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:03,200
this is this is a

1474
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,839
an arms race between the bad actors and

1475
00:46:05,839 --> 00:46:06,240
and

1476
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:08,240
and and people who try to to stop this

1477
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:09,520
behavior so

1478
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,440
it will never be over and yes i think

1479
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,359
you're absolutely right i mean this is a

1480
00:46:13,359 --> 00:46:14,960
this is a resource question to some

1481
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:16,640
extent and i you know make a very blunt

1482
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,160
point about this

1483
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,839
facebook spent last year the equivalent

1484
00:46:21,839 --> 00:46:24,160
of twitter's revenue in protecting the

1485
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,319
integrity of our platform

1486
00:46:26,319 --> 00:46:28,000
um i mean that that is a that is an

1487
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:29,440
enormous uh

1488
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,160
expense to make we have 35 000 people

1489
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:32,560
who

1490
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,480
you know keep the platform safe that's

1491
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,480
that is probably i

1492
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:37,520
haven't really checked it but it's

1493
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,040
probably the biggest enforcement army

1494
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,520
that there is an enforcement

1495
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,000
group of people that there is but i

1496
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,839
think there's a myth and i want to just

1497
00:46:45,839 --> 00:46:47,520
clarify it is that so if you're a small

1498
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,040
state if you're a small group you just

1499
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:50,480
fall through the cracks i don't think

1500
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:51,920
that is right and when we think about

1501
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:53,200
backed actors

1502
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,359
there's definitely one which is behavior

1503
00:46:55,359 --> 00:46:56,400
yeah let's think about it

1504
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,240
as as a bad actor you behave and what we

1505
00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:00,480
call is cip

1506
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,839
um which is which is um sort of um

1507
00:47:03,839 --> 00:47:07,280
coordinated um in influencing of uh

1508
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,160
outcomes in in a different country and

1509
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:11,040
we spot that

1510
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,720
we spot it everywhere that has doesn't

1511
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:14,160
matter how big a country is how big a

1512
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:14,960
group is

1513
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:16,480
these are mechanisms these again

1514
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,800
algorithms that help us to spot so every

1515
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,359
size of political or geographical entity

1516
00:47:21,359 --> 00:47:22,800
benefits from this one and then you have

1517
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,079
content on the platform

1518
00:47:24,079 --> 00:47:25,920
and yes that is a scale game moderating

1519
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,680
content again

1520
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,000
raises the the need for having a lot of

1521
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,200
people on the ground for having the most

1522
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:32,079
sophisticated

1523
00:47:32,079 --> 00:47:34,319
algorithms and it does become a

1524
00:47:34,319 --> 00:47:36,720
challenge for others and i i do remember

1525
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:38,559
when i was on the same panel with

1526
00:47:38,559 --> 00:47:41,440
renatus um vice president when she said

1527
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,040
look are you to pick to care

1528
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,280
you know as a platform and my response

1529
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:46,559
was we we

1530
00:47:46,559 --> 00:47:49,280
we are just big enough that we can care

1531
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,200
actually because it's it is very very

1532
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,440
difficult to bring up these resources

1533
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,440
to deal with all these challenges on a

1534
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:56,559
global stage

1535
00:47:56,559 --> 00:47:58,559
that's that is it and you know if if you

1536
00:47:58,559 --> 00:47:59,839
think it's still not enough

1537
00:47:59,839 --> 00:48:01,520
think about our competitors or smaller

1538
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,359
platforms that come into this market and

1539
00:48:03,359 --> 00:48:04,880
what challenge they have

1540
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,400
look we've got two minutes left so i'm

1541
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:07,359
going to ask you lightning round

1542
00:48:07,359 --> 00:48:08,720
questions i'm going to mention

1543
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:11,040
globe sets globe sex transatlantic

1544
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:11,839
principles

1545
00:48:11,839 --> 00:48:14,160
for a healthy online information space

1546
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:14,960
long title

1547
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,400
too wonky but um uh the second

1548
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,640
item in this says empower users to make

1549
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:22,559
informed decisions about their data

1550
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:24,240
i guess my question is i know that david

1551
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:25,680
carroll cared about his data

1552
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,520
but i don't know if most people do i've

1553
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,280
always wondered you know do we need a

1554
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,160
game app like

1555
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:31,680
you know angry birds or we need

1556
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,599
something that a lot more people than

1557
00:48:33,599 --> 00:48:35,040
attend this conference go through

1558
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,040
where we educate about digital literacy

1559
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,480
we talk about digital health

1560
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,400
we talk about how they could be victims

1561
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,160
so that you could get more of a demand

1562
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:43,040
function

1563
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,359
uh going uh on these questions that

1564
00:48:45,359 --> 00:48:46,800
we're talking about today

1565
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,400
and i'm just you know just real quick

1566
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,319
insights on whether you think again i'm

1567
00:48:50,319 --> 00:48:52,240
naive and thinking that's possible

1568
00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:54,480
because i don't see again gravity going

1569
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:55,440
the right direction

1570
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,359
i see a lot of people overwhelmed by

1571
00:48:57,359 --> 00:48:59,440
this topic and they largely don't care

1572
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:00,720
they don't see it as something

1573
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:03,119
they do it's kind of similar to health i

1574
00:49:03,119 --> 00:49:04,400
see a lot of problems in medical and

1575
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:05,440
health literacy

1576
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:06,880
people just kind of forfeit you know

1577
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,160
responsibility to let others make

1578
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:09,280
decisions for them

1579
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,599
how do you empower and you know in to go

1580
00:49:11,599 --> 00:49:12,319
back to this

1581
00:49:12,319 --> 00:49:14,880
globe sec uh initiative how do you

1582
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,000
actually want people to

1583
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:20,160
want this david the number one response

1584
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,319
that people have had after seeing the

1585
00:49:22,319 --> 00:49:24,240
netflix documentary the great hack

1586
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:27,359
is what can i do to protect my data

1587
00:49:27,359 --> 00:49:30,480
and i don't have good responses to that

1588
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,280
question so there is a hunger for it and

1589
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:34,240
the tools

1590
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:38,000
and abilities are not there we

1591
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,760
we get our financial information

1592
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,599
proactively disclosed in a monthly

1593
00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:42,559
statement

1594
00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:44,640
why isn't our data why aren't our data

1595
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,720
profiles proactively disclosed

1596
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:49,920
to us excellent thank you

1597
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,599
um marcus your thoughts and we'll give

1598
00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:53,760
the last word to renata

1599
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,160
i would go in a similar direction i i do

1600
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:57,440
think you know there are people

1601
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,440
probably as a fraction of population

1602
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:00,960
that that doesn't really care generally

1603
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,640
doesn't care as people that care but

1604
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,000
i think what is important is that the

1605
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,640
people who care have more opportunities

1606
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,559
to express that care and to have more

1607
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:10,640
control and have more transparency over

1608
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,240
over the data and i think that's sort of

1609
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:13,839
the gradual process

1610
00:50:13,839 --> 00:50:16,079
that that we work towards as a as a

1611
00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:18,000
private company with our settings with

1612
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:18,559
our

1613
00:50:18,559 --> 00:50:20,559
uh product changes but also i think

1614
00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:21,680
that's where we go in with

1615
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,440
all regulations think about the digital

1616
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,119
services act think about

1617
00:50:25,119 --> 00:50:26,880
privacy regulation and so on so i think

1618
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:28,400
it's a it's a it's a piece of movement

1619
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,000
that that is required here

1620
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,520
but more transparency more control

1621
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,520
that's the way to go thank you renata

1622
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,240
you're going to get the last word

1623
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:38,480
i think steve i'm less pessimistic than

1624
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:39,280
you about

1625
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,839
the citizens in general i'm a journalist

1626
00:50:41,839 --> 00:50:44,559
it's my job to be pessimistic

1627
00:50:44,559 --> 00:50:48,079
absolutely but on the other hand i see a

1628
00:50:48,079 --> 00:50:49,520
real task here because

1629
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,839
if we don't address the media literacy

1630
00:50:51,839 --> 00:50:53,359
and the digital literacy

1631
00:50:53,359 --> 00:50:56,160
in societies and at all ages uh i mean

1632
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:57,839
there's a lot of talk about you know

1633
00:50:57,839 --> 00:51:00,160
education school education and fos you

1634
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,160
know focusing on that but you have to

1635
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:03,520
really think about you know all

1636
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,440
generations there's also a vulnerable

1637
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:06,800
group of elderly people

1638
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,319
you know if we don't get that right the

1639
00:51:08,319 --> 00:51:09,920
digital divide and with all the kind of

1640
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:11,520
the difficulties that come along with it

1641
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:12,640
can really harm us

1642
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,640
so i think we we have understood that

1643
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,960
this is a huge kind of task for us that

1644
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,720
along with regulation increased

1645
00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:21,040
transparency we need to kind of you know

1646
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:22,480
really engage in

1647
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,480
concrete programming and concrete kind

1648
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:25,599
of you know tools

1649
00:51:25,599 --> 00:51:27,680
to enable users to actually be better

1650
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:29,599
informed because otherwise if we lose

1651
00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:31,119
them we will not kind of find a way

1652
00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:32,880
through that

1653
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,880
uh well listen what a great conversation

1654
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:35,920
a short period of time i didn't know

1655
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,119
where this was all going to go but i

1656
00:51:37,119 --> 00:51:37,839
thought we

1657
00:51:37,839 --> 00:51:40,160
actually did say uh and and reveal some

1658
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:41,359
very interesting

1659
00:51:41,359 --> 00:51:43,040
uh parts of this discussion i really

1660
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,200
want to thank uh renata nicolet of

1661
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,280
of the european commission in brussels

1662
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,119
marcus reinish of facebook i'm happy to

1663
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:50,480
friend you if you want marcus we can

1664
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:51,440
become pals

1665
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,000
and and david i love facebook but david

1666
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:54,559
carroll

1667
00:51:54,559 --> 00:51:56,720
uh from parsons school of design watch

1668
00:51:56,720 --> 00:51:57,680
the great hack

1669
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,599
it's such an important show thank you

1670
00:51:59,599 --> 00:52:02,240
all uh right now our time is up i should

1671
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:04,000
say that there is a program about to

1672
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:04,720
begin

1673
00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:06,319
uh with the prime ministers of slovakia

1674
00:52:06,319 --> 00:52:08,000
in austria in the maria teresa room it's

1675
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,040
gonna be tough to get in there you'll

1676
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,400
have a lot more fun if you just hang out

1677
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:11,599
in this room because it's gonna run live

1678
00:52:11,599 --> 00:52:12,960
here but let's give a big round of

1679
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,559
applause to our panel thank you so much

1680
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,280
thanks david thanks marcus thanks renata

1681
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,040
i hope to see you in person one of these

1682
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:22,720
days

1683
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:33,020
that'd be nice bye very much

1684
00:52:33,020 --> 00:52:37,130
[Music]

1685
00:52:37,130 --> 00:52:39,410
[Applause]

1686
00:52:39,410 --> 00:52:40,800
[Music]

1687
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,880
you