1
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,840
so

2
00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:53,779
[Music]

3
00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,390
so

4
00:00:59,390 --> 00:01:20,900
[Music]

5
00:01:23,990 --> 00:01:36,150
[Music]

6
00:01:36,150 --> 00:01:38,180
[Applause]

7
00:01:38,180 --> 00:01:49,670
[Music]

8
00:01:52,479 --> 00:01:55,040
well uh good early evening everybody in

9
00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,880
bratislava and berlin

10
00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,240
and uh good morning uh in san francisco

11
00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,560
or the bay area if that's the case uh to

12
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,560
francis fukuyama

13
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,600
thank you very much for joining us and

14
00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:08,000
thank you

15
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,679
everybody here in the audience i just

16
00:02:09,679 --> 00:02:11,360
remind you that we have an

17
00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,480
online audience and you can ask

18
00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,319
questions using the globsec app

19
00:02:18,319 --> 00:02:20,319
and i think that those people who are

20
00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:22,239
here actually have that demonstrated to

21
00:02:22,239 --> 00:02:24,000
them so uh please feel free

22
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,640
and uh i will endeavor to read out

23
00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:27,280
questions

24
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,520
as this conversation goes on now

25
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:30,800
unfortunately of course

26
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,879
uh we only have 35 minutes so we are

27
00:02:32,879 --> 00:02:34,879
going to have to be relatively quick

28
00:02:34,879 --> 00:02:38,560
um in our answers and our questions

29
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,000
and so i would ask everybody if they

30
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,080
could uh to to respect that for the

31
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:43,120
purposes

32
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,879
of a uh good discussion um

33
00:02:46,879 --> 00:02:50,560
there's very there's very little

34
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,720
uh that can be got out of a discussion

35
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,440
about democracy these days in my opinion

36
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,440
um if simply we're just going to sit

37
00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,360
here and lament

38
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:00,720
and i think it's even worse if we're

39
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,040
going to sit here and blame the public

40
00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,440
i want to try and drive this discussion

41
00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:06,720
in the direction

42
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,159
of what it is that the public

43
00:03:10,159 --> 00:03:12,159
or sections of the public have against

44
00:03:12,159 --> 00:03:14,319
the mainstream against the establishment

45
00:03:14,319 --> 00:03:16,319
but much more importantly than that do

46
00:03:16,319 --> 00:03:17,360
they have

47
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,480
just cause uh you know i think it's very

48
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:21,920
easy and this is one of the dangers

49
00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:24,159
i fall into it myself of talking about

50
00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:24,959
populists i

51
00:03:24,959 --> 00:03:26,640
actually think this discussion would be

52
00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,159
a lot better if we abolished the word

53
00:03:28,159 --> 00:03:29,040
populist

54
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,680
uh from it uh since it seems to cover uh

55
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,360
so many different bases

56
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:34,799
um but i really think that if we're

57
00:03:34,799 --> 00:03:36,080
going to get something out of the next

58
00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:36,879
30 minutes

59
00:03:36,879 --> 00:03:38,239
i think we should try and do something

60
00:03:38,239 --> 00:03:39,599
which isn't very often done which is

61
00:03:39,599 --> 00:03:40,799
actually try and look at things to

62
00:03:40,799 --> 00:03:42,080
employ empathy

63
00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,480
and try and see what it is that sections

64
00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:45,760
of the public have against the

65
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:46,560
mainstream

66
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,599
and do they in fact have a point as you

67
00:03:49,599 --> 00:03:50,239
can see

68
00:03:50,239 --> 00:03:53,200
uh on your programs to discuss this uh

69
00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,200
we have francis fukuyama

70
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,920
from stanford university um thank you

71
00:03:57,920 --> 00:03:59,840
very much for joining us particularly at

72
00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:00,799
this early hour

73
00:04:00,799 --> 00:04:03,840
where you are we have sandra brecker ceo

74
00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:04,879
of the robert bosh

75
00:04:04,879 --> 00:04:07,599
uh stiftung joining us from berlin thank

76
00:04:07,599 --> 00:04:09,200
you very much also for being with us

77
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:10,000
today

78
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,040
and uh here in bratislava we have

79
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,360
jakub visnevsky thank you jakub for

80
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,079
being here jacob is the vice president

81
00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:21,519
of globsec so let me just go straight in

82
00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:21,918
then

83
00:04:21,918 --> 00:04:23,440
uh with this question why do people

84
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:24,960
distrust our democracies

85
00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,680
and do they have just cause francis

86
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,240
fukuyama

87
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,199
i think that there's been this big

88
00:04:33,199 --> 00:04:35,199
debate over the last few years

89
00:04:35,199 --> 00:04:38,960
as to whether that distrust is driven by

90
00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,600
primarily economic uh or primarily

91
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,680
cultural reasons

92
00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,080
i think that both of them are at play

93
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:47,600
because obviously

94
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,320
globalization has disrupted a lot of

95
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:51,040
jobs

96
00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,199
and created a lot of inequality but i do

97
00:04:55,199 --> 00:04:57,440
think that the cultural

98
00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,840
dimensions are ones that are really

99
00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:00,800
critical to

100
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,840
understand that there's a huge social

101
00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:04,639
divide that's

102
00:05:04,639 --> 00:05:08,080
opened up between better educated people

103
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,080
living in cosmopolitan urban

104
00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,520
areas with lots of access to the global

105
00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:14,240
economy

106
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,240
and people that live in second and third

107
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,160
tier towns and villages or in the

108
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:19,759
countryside and that

109
00:05:19,759 --> 00:05:22,800
has generally been the social base of

110
00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,240
most of the populist voters

111
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,280
and i think that the cultural

112
00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,160
i mean you wanted to distinguish between

113
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:33,199
in a sense

114
00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:36,400
legitimate and illegitimate

115
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,199
sources of anger i think that you know

116
00:05:39,199 --> 00:05:40,400
we would all regard

117
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,199
uh kind of racism against immigrants uh

118
00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:43,840
or

119
00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:47,039
racial minorities or women or uh

120
00:05:47,039 --> 00:05:51,039
lgbt uh people uh as illegitimate

121
00:05:51,039 --> 00:05:53,680
uh but it's also important to understand

122
00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,360
that that cultural divide

123
00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,759
has also produced a kind of lack of

124
00:05:57,759 --> 00:05:59,280
understanding

125
00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:02,319
of the struggles that especially working

126
00:06:02,319 --> 00:06:02,880
class

127
00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,120
people you know that don't have access

128
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:06,400
to

129
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,720
globalization to the same extent have

130
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:09,840
felt

131
00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:11,440
and a lot of the anger i think is

132
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,280
justified

133
00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:15,120
as a result of you know what's really

134
00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,160
the arrogance of

135
00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,960
people that have more liberal views and

136
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:21,600
in fact

137
00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,759
denouncing uh populist voters simply as

138
00:06:25,759 --> 00:06:27,120
a group as racist

139
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,280
uh or uh xenophobes i think adds to that

140
00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:33,360
uh perception of a kind of social

141
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,680
contempt

142
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,600
do you think also just to ask a

143
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:38,960
follow-up question to that i mean

144
00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,800
there's the social dimension the class

145
00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,319
dimension and you mentioned

146
00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:43,440
which is often mentioned in this

147
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,759
discussion about globalization and those

148
00:06:45,759 --> 00:06:47,680
that have been left behind and you also

149
00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,520
drew the distinction between

150
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,720
liberal metropolitan elites uh i live in

151
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,479
washington d.c

152
00:06:54,479 --> 00:06:57,520
where i believe 93 of the population

153
00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:58,880
voted for donald trump

154
00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,199
and i'm not sure whether trump got more

155
00:07:01,199 --> 00:07:03,199
than the libertarian candidate but it

156
00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:06,160
was a close run thing

157
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,000
what about the dimension that it isn't

158
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,240
just that that there might be a sense

159
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:11,599
that our democracies

160
00:07:11,599 --> 00:07:14,400
in the era of the digital revolution

161
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:15,199
when people

162
00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:16,960
have access to the conversation in the

163
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,240
way they never have before

164
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,000
but the levers of power are pretty much

165
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,599
the same i mean the american

166
00:07:21,599 --> 00:07:22,720
constitution is a particularly

167
00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,479
interesting example it's almost frozen

168
00:07:24,479 --> 00:07:25,280
in time

169
00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,520
how america does its politics despite

170
00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:28,800
changes obviously

171
00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,160
um in some respects i mean are our

172
00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,280
democracies outdated

173
00:07:35,919 --> 00:07:41,360
uh well in a certain sense technological

174
00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:42,880
change has fueled

175
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,919
a real scrambling of democratic

176
00:07:45,919 --> 00:07:46,879
discourse

177
00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:48,879
and that is something that is genuinely

178
00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:49,919
new

179
00:07:49,919 --> 00:07:52,000
when the internet was first introduced

180
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,160
in the 1990s we thought that this would

181
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,319
be a big boon to democracy because

182
00:07:56,319 --> 00:07:58,319
everybody would have access

183
00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:00,639
to information and therefore to power

184
00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:02,560
but we've now seen the ways in which it

185
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:03,520
can be

186
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,599
weaponized and in the united states

187
00:08:05,599 --> 00:08:06,560
today

188
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,319
something like a third of american

189
00:08:08,319 --> 00:08:10,720
voters believe a completely false

190
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:11,520
narrative

191
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,160
that last november's presidential

192
00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,319
election was fraudulent and that donald

193
00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:16,720
trump

194
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,199
actually won it and i don't think this

195
00:08:19,199 --> 00:08:21,120
would have been remotely possible 20

196
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:22,879
years ago when you had a

197
00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:25,680
kind of domination by legacy media that

198
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,599
acted as a filter for

199
00:08:27,599 --> 00:08:30,800
uh information and we haven't figured

200
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,159
out how to deal with this

201
00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:34,240
uh you know we're putting pressure on

202
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,799
the big internet platforms to

203
00:08:36,799 --> 00:08:38,958
moderate that content but i think in the

204
00:08:38,958 --> 00:08:41,200
end that's not an acceptable solution

205
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,080
for a modern democracy so in that sense

206
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:45,519
i think it is

207
00:08:45,519 --> 00:08:47,680
absolutely the case that the political

208
00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:50,000
institutions really have not

209
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,160
kept up with the kinds of social and

210
00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,000
technological changes that we've

211
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,080
experienced um sandra brecker in

212
00:08:58,080 --> 00:08:59,680
berlin i'm certainly not asking you

213
00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:01,279
simply to talk about germany although

214
00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:03,040
germany is a very important

215
00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,600
in some way say the key democracy in

216
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,360
continental europe

217
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,279
but from where you're sitting and how

218
00:09:09,279 --> 00:09:10,399
you observe

219
00:09:10,399 --> 00:09:12,800
um this problem of disillusionment among

220
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:14,800
significant sections not entirely

221
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,399
uh true of the whole of the population

222
00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:17,760
but significant sections of the

223
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,680
population

224
00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:22,080
do you think and to what extent do you

225
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:22,880
think that they're

226
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,000
actually the people who have a complaint

227
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,959
have just cause

228
00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,160
thank you robin it's a pleasure to be uh

229
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:33,360
on this panel well

230
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,680
you know as francis fukuyama just said

231
00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:37,120
one of the strongest drivers of

232
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:38,320
polarization is

233
00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:39,760
inequality in all of its different

234
00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,000
dimensions both within societies and

235
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,600
internationally and these inequalities

236
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:44,560
have been

237
00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:46,640
exposed and further exacerbated by the

238
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:47,680
pandemic

239
00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:50,560
i think we've seen how you know strong

240
00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:50,959
these

241
00:09:50,959 --> 00:09:53,600
inequalities are we have to acknowledge

242
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,279
the inequalities which are real

243
00:09:55,279 --> 00:09:57,040
or which we consider real but also

244
00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,320
understand that they are no less

245
00:09:58,320 --> 00:09:59,519
relevant if they're a matter of

246
00:09:59,519 --> 00:10:00,720
perception

247
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,880
they're as important so yes you know

248
00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:04,880
there is just cause

249
00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,040
um we need to assess society as

250
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:08,800
individual you just spoke about germany

251
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:10,240
so i think it's very important to look

252
00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,240
at societies individually and not

253
00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,079
have one theory for all with their

254
00:10:14,079 --> 00:10:15,920
social political and cultural context

255
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:17,440
and history in mind and

256
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,440
apply contextualized measures if you

257
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,200
talk about really how to address these

258
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:22,079
issues

259
00:10:22,079 --> 00:10:24,240
and learn from each other i think one

260
00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:25,600
very important aspect

261
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,600
is that we usually pay special attention

262
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,360
to those segments of society which are

263
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,160
considered as

264
00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,240
polarized on one or the other side of

265
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:33,680
the spectrum

266
00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:35,120
we recently commissioned the study to

267
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,279
better understand who the ambivalent

268
00:10:37,279 --> 00:10:39,760
though not anti-democratic groups are

269
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,720
and the study um you know which covered

270
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,200
germany france britain poland and the us

271
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,760
and focused on those segments of society

272
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,079
that feel left out of democracy are

273
00:10:50,079 --> 00:10:52,800
are disappointed by its results these

274
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:53,360
groups

275
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,279
still also have in them you know

276
00:10:55,279 --> 00:10:56,959
ambivalent positions

277
00:10:56,959 --> 00:10:58,720
and reaching them is crucial as they are

278
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,200
of a relevant size almost everywhere

279
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,279
from 23 in germany up to 51 in poland

280
00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:07,519
um they offer considerable potential to

281
00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:09,120
play a role in overcoming

282
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,040
polarization i mean our societies are

283
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,360
not all black and white

284
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,560
and we we have to support citizens to

285
00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:19,440
uh to receive the competences and learn

286
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,040
the competences to participate in the

287
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,279
analog and digital worlds

288
00:11:23,279 --> 00:11:26,000
and have the skill sets um you know like

289
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,760
the ability to compromise to endure

290
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,920
ambiguities and rapid change as well as

291
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:30,720
the increasing

292
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,839
complexity of issues which fuels

293
00:11:33,839 --> 00:11:36,000
frustration in addition to the

294
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,640
inequality i just mentioned

295
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,240
you know the likelihood of engaging with

296
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:41,600
someone who has completely different

297
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:42,399
opinions

298
00:11:42,399 --> 00:11:45,839
is decreasing and real-time face-to-face

299
00:11:45,839 --> 00:11:47,839
conversations have proven to be so

300
00:11:47,839 --> 00:11:50,000
highly effective dismantling the biases

301
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,839
prejudices and stereotypes at fuel

302
00:11:51,839 --> 00:11:52,800
division

303
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,360
so dialogue is important we need to find

304
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:56,399
i think

305
00:11:56,399 --> 00:11:58,160
uh credible formats of direct

306
00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,160
participation and i mean this very

307
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,519
seriously which complement

308
00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:03,200
established forms of representative

309
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:04,639
democracies

310
00:12:04,639 --> 00:12:07,680
so uh you know deliberative practice is

311
00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:08,480
important

312
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,480
um and all of us who are working in

313
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,040
these fields have a responsibilities to

314
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,360
reach out to different target groups

315
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,600
and to seek for new ways which

316
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,760
complement what we already have in terms

317
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:20,880
of

318
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,240
democratic practice sandra i know you

319
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:25,839
don't speak for the european union but

320
00:12:25,839 --> 00:12:26,560
i'm sure you

321
00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:28,720
make of the european union a central

322
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,480
part of your your thinking and the way

323
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:31,040
you you

324
00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:32,800
look at politics in europe since anybody

325
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,720
who's sensible does exactly that

326
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,560
um in terms of this question of

327
00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:41,040
just cause and i think francis wickham i

328
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,120
raised actually crucial point about

329
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:44,800
distinguishing between the kind of

330
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,639
criticisms of the status quo the

331
00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:48,160
establishment mainstream

332
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,600
call is what you want which are

333
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,920
fundamentally unacceptable which is

334
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,200
racially driven

335
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,760
gender driven uh homophobic this kind of

336
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,200
thing and those would actually

337
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,800
are in part perhaps you know a cry from

338
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,160
the depths a plea

339
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,320
uh from people who are dispossessed and

340
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,480
poor and simply don't feel they have

341
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,839
a stake in society um but there are

342
00:13:09,839 --> 00:13:12,480
political questions aren't there there

343
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,240
are political questions of legitimacy

344
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:15,839
and i was just having a conversation

345
00:13:15,839 --> 00:13:18,399
here at globsec this afternoon about um

346
00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:20,560
where things went wrong uh in the

347
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:22,720
2000s in the european union with repeat

348
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:23,839
referendums

349
00:13:23,839 --> 00:13:26,480
um ireland was famously asked twice uh

350
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,000
to repeat referendums when it didn't

351
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,760
give a result that uh that brussels

352
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:30,560
wanted

353
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:32,079
um there are all the shenanigans over

354
00:13:32,079 --> 00:13:34,000
the lisbon treaty the public were

355
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,360
watching this

356
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,680
the public were watching this do you not

357
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:39,600
think that there are there is a part of

358
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:40,399
the whole

359
00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:42,480
way that the establishment itself has

360
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:43,920
been behaving in the last

361
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,480
couple of decades that does give some

362
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:47,519
just cause

363
00:13:47,519 --> 00:13:49,519
um for concern about the way our

364
00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:52,399
politics is run

365
00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:54,880
well uh in particular last year i think

366
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,040
the european union made one of the big

367
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,920
mistakes of not showing much solidarity

368
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:00,240
uh

369
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,959
in the pandemic and also not necessarily

370
00:14:02,959 --> 00:14:05,040
the mobility and the fast responses that

371
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:06,160
you would need to

372
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,079
really actually cater to citizens

373
00:14:08,079 --> 00:14:10,480
interests to protect citizens uh

374
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,800
in an equal manner you're absolutely

375
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,720
right robin in saying that there is a

376
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,199
uh you know a disconnect between

377
00:14:17,199 --> 00:14:18,240
citizens and

378
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,000
and public elites um and that is

379
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,240
very strong uh in terms of the european

380
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:25,600
union institutions

381
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,360
union institutions and and different

382
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,120
from country to country

383
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,920
uh what it does is it it erodes you know

384
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,440
public trust

385
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,839
and that is a huge issue that we have to

386
00:14:35,839 --> 00:14:36,720
face

387
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,720
uh if you look at the crisis of trust

388
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,720
that we have not only within countries

389
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,639
but also in the european union

390
00:14:42,639 --> 00:14:45,120
uh it has been increasing but we also

391
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:46,639
have to say that irrespective of

392
00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:48,480
political systems delivery of government

393
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,320
services and this also goes to european

394
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,639
union services to citizens

395
00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:55,199
and the ability of a state or of a union

396
00:14:55,199 --> 00:14:57,279
to protect its citizens are defining

397
00:14:57,279 --> 00:15:00,000
factors in whether people have trust

398
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,560
um i guess in in terms of the european

399
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:03,120
union

400
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,040
you know there is a matter of

401
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,959
representation and legitimacy

402
00:15:06,959 --> 00:15:08,720
and we've you know had discussions

403
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,160
around this uh

404
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,199
for many many years there is um an issue

405
00:15:13,199 --> 00:15:15,760
of solidarity which people don't see

406
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,040
um and there is uh you know the lack of

407
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:20,240
fast response

408
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,800
and also a risk aversion that the

409
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,399
european union has shown

410
00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:28,560
which doesn't necessarily fuel trust

411
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,320
uh let me just turn quickly to um uh

412
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,880
uh to to jakub visnevsky um here in

413
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:35,920
bratislava

414
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,600
um we are going to go in a few minutes

415
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:38,959
to a member of our online

416
00:15:38,959 --> 00:15:41,440
audience but i wanted to ask you um

417
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:42,880
jakub

418
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,240
i've been coming to and i've actually

419
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,000
lived in this part of the world for a

420
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,240
long time and i used to argue

421
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,399
certainly back in the 90s and the 2000s

422
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:51,680
that

423
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,160
central eastern europe uh was materially

424
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:54,800
behind

425
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,360
but conceptually ahead in the sense that

426
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,519
the political intelligence year here i

427
00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:02,079
my impression was um was was more

428
00:16:02,079 --> 00:16:03,680
original in its thinking

429
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,519
had been schooled uh school of hard

430
00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:07,519
knocks of course uh under communism

431
00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:08,720
actually understood

432
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,240
certain things that the west european

433
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,399
intelligence was perhaps a little less

434
00:16:12,399 --> 00:16:16,320
ah a little less able to understand and

435
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,000
particularly when you see

436
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,160
issues like belarus today i think it's

437
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:21,600
the central east europeans that really

438
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,199
step up because they understand

439
00:16:23,199 --> 00:16:25,279
uh what the heck's going on over there

440
00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:26,959
here in central and eastern europe

441
00:16:26,959 --> 00:16:30,000
um where is the disconnect taking place

442
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,240
and why we clearly have a major problem

443
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,000
in the country to our immediate south

444
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,399
uh in hungary um perhaps you can shed

445
00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:37,920
some light on on the good sides and the

446
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,279
bad sides to this question that we've

447
00:16:39,279 --> 00:16:40,000
been discussing

448
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,040
right it seems to me that the problems

449
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,720
of central eastern europe

450
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,120
are not radically different from these

451
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:47,759
of

452
00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:49,600
developed countries be it america or

453
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,759
western europe they are simply

454
00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:54,959
more complicated more profound

455
00:16:54,959 --> 00:16:57,839
given the immaturity of democratic

456
00:16:57,839 --> 00:16:59,199
institutions

457
00:16:59,199 --> 00:17:02,880
and smaller preparedness of a civil

458
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:03,759
society

459
00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:06,640
to face certain populist moves on the

460
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,199
part of

461
00:17:07,199 --> 00:17:09,679
establishment i'm not saying that the

462
00:17:09,679 --> 00:17:10,959
populists are more

463
00:17:10,959 --> 00:17:12,640
represented here in this part of the

464
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,480
world what i'm saying is that

465
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,679
there is less of a protection

466
00:17:17,679 --> 00:17:20,880
in in as regards institutions uh um

467
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,919
against the populists and i think

468
00:17:23,919 --> 00:17:27,760
it feather complicated matters because

469
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:29,840
there is always a temptation on the part

470
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,440
of this or vet government

471
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,640
to say massage the figures so that

472
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,760
they look nice or to manipulate the date

473
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:38,799
of the elections

474
00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:41,840
so that they can happen

475
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,039
in the exact moment when the government

476
00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:46,160
wants it or

477
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,760
imagine some by elections in some region

478
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,760
where suddenly many more vaccines are

479
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,760
available in comparison to what is

480
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,760
available in other regions and this is

481
00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:58,960
thanks to the government

482
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,679
so this temptation is so strong that

483
00:18:01,679 --> 00:18:03,200
there is

484
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,520
some some governments cannot resist it

485
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,440
which which leads to the further

486
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,400
deterioration of standards of democracy

487
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,039
and by

488
00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:14,640
turn in turn it leads to deterioration

489
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,280
to to the levels of trust our research

490
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:18,880
proves it that there is not

491
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,679
there is a big difference between um

492
00:18:21,679 --> 00:18:22,400
moods

493
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,919
and attitudes of say bulgarian romanian

494
00:18:25,919 --> 00:18:26,640
but also

495
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,320
polish and czech society versus the one

496
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,559
that we study which is representing

497
00:18:32,559 --> 00:18:33,440
western europe

498
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,720
that is austria so for example if you uh

499
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,360
measure the trust in government saying

500
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,400
the truth

501
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,520
if you measure the prevalence of a

502
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:44,080
certain

503
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,320
conspiracy theories for example but it's

504
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:47,440
a

505
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,520
the whole covet does not exist it's just

506
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:50,559
a fake

507
00:18:50,559 --> 00:18:52,799
and we can see that central eastern

508
00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:54,000
europe is

509
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,200
full of this this confusion and they the

510
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,400
people seem not to have authorities more

511
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:00,960
allow for

512
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,960
these intellectual authorities to turn

513
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,720
to which is always

514
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,039
problematic i i am myself as a citizen i

515
00:19:09,039 --> 00:19:11,600
i'm often confused whether government is

516
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:12,559
not massaging

517
00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:15,120
certain figures unfortunately well

518
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:16,640
sometimes they actually do massage

519
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:17,600
figures so

520
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,360
so you're not always being irrational

521
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:21,120
when you distrust the government i mean

522
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:23,280
uh you know governments are sometimes uh

523
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,120
dishonest and we know that because

524
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,120
scandal is something that anybody who

525
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:28,480
grows up with politics in western

526
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:29,520
society

527
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,360
is is a word that actually has real

528
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:32,799
meaning um i

529
00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:35,440
i just wanted to to jump into um the

530
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,400
online audience we have a question

531
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,640
from from mauricio in mexico

532
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,120
hello everybody thank you very much i'm

533
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,600
mauricio from the mexico research

534
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,000
center for peace my question is

535
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,600
regarding the mass media

536
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,600
part of the phenomenon is a deep

537
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,520
distrust in mass media

538
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,120
and what yale abraham brahms has called

539
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,880
the traditional narrators of truth so

540
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,400
what would you recommend that's

541
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,640
something that in mexico we have

542
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,720
started very very deeply the

543
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,320
disconnection between

544
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,880
people and the mass media what would you

545
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:13,760
recommend to

546
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,200
traditional media to rebuild trust

547
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,600
in truth in data and science thank you

548
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,120
thank you very much i was going to turn

549
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,360
to the to the question of actually what

550
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:26,240
to do

551
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,400
uh in terms of policy but it's good to

552
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,840
sort of this is what the media is the

553
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:30,960
media is a medium

554
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,720
so this will be the bridge to the

555
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,640
question about what politicians can do

556
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,320
and what kind of legislation

557
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,240
uh or what kind of legislative remedy

558
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,000
could we we could enact in order to

559
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,039
address this problem but francis

560
00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:41,840
fukuyama

561
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,840
on this question that mauricio raised

562
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:44,880
about the media

563
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,280
uh what can the what what role can the

564
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:48,880
media play

565
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:54,080
in in helping to to right this situation

566
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:55,840
uh well i think first of all the

567
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,840
question is a very good one because

568
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,159
there's been a lot of focus on social

569
00:21:00,159 --> 00:21:00,720
media

570
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,760
and online interactions as the source of

571
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,240
populism and a lot of our problems

572
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,440
but it's actually the legacy mass

573
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,760
media television and newspapers that

574
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,440
also contribute to it

575
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,760
it differs a little bit from one region

576
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,280
to another but i think one

577
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,320
reason that people distrust the media is

578
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,799
actually the ownership structure

579
00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:25,280
in eastern europe and in the former

580
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,280
soviet union

581
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,600
after a lot of western media companies

582
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,280
exited those markets

583
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,080
uh basically the legacy media was taken

584
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,400
over by oligarchs so in ukraine today

585
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:37,600
for example

586
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,720
you know there are maybe six or seven

587
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,720
oligarchs that control the entire

588
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,520
economy each of them owns a tv station

589
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,320
and newspapers and that's really the

590
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:49,200
only channel

591
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,080
of information and so it's not an

592
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,720
accident that people don't

593
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,440
trust the media in mexico i think you

594
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,039
have a very similar

595
00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:02,400
uh problem with non-transparent uh

596
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,679
uh you know kind of oligarchic uh

597
00:22:05,679 --> 00:22:08,880
influence over mass media uh the

598
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,000
solution for this

599
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,880
is not uh entirely straightforward i do

600
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:13,760
think that

601
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,559
in some countries public broadcasting is

602
00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:16,880
a

603
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,280
is a solution where you have a

604
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,159
sufficient degree of

605
00:22:22,159 --> 00:22:24,400
public trust in institutions but in

606
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,760
other places the public broadcasters get

607
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,159
captured by powerful economic and

608
00:22:30,159 --> 00:22:31,600
political

609
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,799
actors and so that's not a universal

610
00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:36,960
recommendation i think in general we

611
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,480
have to worry about

612
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,520
excessive concentration of media power

613
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:42,400
because

614
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,480
that is really what uh invites

615
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:45,919
manipulation

616
00:22:45,919 --> 00:22:49,200
uh i call this the berlusconi phenomenon

617
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,880
because he's really the person that

618
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:51,919
invented this

619
00:22:51,919 --> 00:22:55,120
interaction between media ownership

620
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,080
and political power and that's a pattern

621
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,559
unfortunately that's been repeated in

622
00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:03,440
in very many countries and breaking that

623
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,799
connection i think is important

624
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:08,480
you mentioned berlusconi effect which

625
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,320
which may well be new but in fact i mean

626
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,440
certainly in the uk

627
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,039
and the british media has traditionally

628
00:23:13,039 --> 00:23:14,960
been owned by british media is

629
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,559
traditionally oligarchical

630
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:19,200
and uh we used to refer to the owners of

631
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:19,840
the uh

632
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,400
the major newspapers as the press barons

633
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,000
and so and britain by

634
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,600
relative standards has been a fairly

635
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,440
successful democracy so

636
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,960
i'm kind of wondering why this

637
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,679
phenomenon that we have seen before is

638
00:23:33,679 --> 00:23:36,080
more problematic today is it the kind of

639
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,080
people that are owning the media

640
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,799
francis fukuyama i don't think no i i do

641
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:41,360
think that

642
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:43,520
berlusconi really did set a new pattern

643
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,679
it's not just oligarchic ownership of

644
00:23:45,679 --> 00:23:46,559
media

645
00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:49,120
but using that ownership to then propel

646
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,240
yourself personally into politics

647
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,240
then to become prime minister and then

648
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,640
to use your political power to protect

649
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,720
your business interest

650
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,520
and that i think is a pattern that we've

651
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,080
seen i mean rupert murdoch in a way

652
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,480
comes closest to that in his association

653
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,559
with donald trump but he himself did not

654
00:24:08,559 --> 00:24:10,559
go into politics but i do think that

655
00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:11,520
that's a

656
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,240
kind of toxic combination that's been

657
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:15,440
you know exploited

658
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,400
particularly in central and eastern

659
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,000
europe and in the former soviet union

660
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,279
you'll be pleased to know that i'm not

661
00:24:23,279 --> 00:24:24,799
going to ask one of the questions with

662
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:26,159
me it's like do you still believe the

663
00:24:26,159 --> 00:24:27,520
history has come to an end

664
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,200
since people have asked you that every

665
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,520
day for the last 30 years i'm not going

666
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:32,720
to ask it to you

667
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,039
um but i am going to ask sandra brecker

668
00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:36,720
to follow up on on what you were saying

669
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,240
about uh media i mean

670
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,159
germany has some very big me i mean the

671
00:24:40,159 --> 00:24:42,159
actual springer group in berlin is a

672
00:24:42,159 --> 00:24:45,600
is a huge uh media group i mean how is

673
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,279
the the traditionalists we can talk

674
00:24:47,279 --> 00:24:48,799
about traditional and non-traditional

675
00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:50,799
medium feel free to talk about whichever

676
00:24:50,799 --> 00:24:53,840
of those you like but to what extent is

677
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,360
the traditional media

678
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:59,279
in germany respected by the public

679
00:24:59,279 --> 00:25:00,480
well first of all i want to say

680
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,080
something about conspiracy theories

681
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,320
because conspiracy theories are not

682
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,960
necessarily um you know in the ownership

683
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,039
of eastern and

684
00:25:09,039 --> 00:25:11,440
southern european countries anymore

685
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:12,159
we've seen

686
00:25:12,159 --> 00:25:13,919
and i think this is an effect that we've

687
00:25:13,919 --> 00:25:16,000
seen over the past one and a half years

688
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,159
an increase in conspiracy theories where

689
00:25:18,159 --> 00:25:20,080
we haven't had them before

690
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,320
fueled by different media outlets

691
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:23,760
including germany so

692
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,320
we see this phenomenon um you know in in

693
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,840
countries where we haven't had it to

694
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,520
this extent before

695
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,520
and while i say this as you speak of

696
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,000
germany interestingly we've also seen an

697
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:34,720
increase

698
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,440
in um in trust in the public

699
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,039
broadcasting system

700
00:25:39,039 --> 00:25:41,279
so they've had a considerable increase

701
00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:43,440
in in viewership over the past one and a

702
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,440
half years over the pandemic

703
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,919
uh which means that that you know this

704
00:25:47,919 --> 00:25:49,760
public broadcasting system

705
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,960
has strong value and still thank god

706
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,600
has um despite all of its criticism all

707
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,600
of the criticism we have towards it

708
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,480
has a very strong role to play we also

709
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,279
have

710
00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:04,159
you know media outlets which are uh only

711
00:26:04,159 --> 00:26:06,159
in a different manner and

712
00:26:06,159 --> 00:26:08,880
have been contributing to certain public

713
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,640
opinions and moods

714
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,520
um and that is a problem but i i think

715
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:14,400
there are two

716
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,279
you know they're very different

717
00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:17,279
situations you have countries where

718
00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:18,960
media are completely politically

719
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,320
instrumentalized and where you don't

720
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,400
have any independent media anymore

721
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,240
you have countries where you have public

722
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,000
broadcasting where it can be

723
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,320
still be strengthened and very pla plays

724
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,159
a very important role for example such

725
00:26:30,159 --> 00:26:31,279
as germany

726
00:26:31,279 --> 00:26:34,240
and you you in order to strengthen media

727
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,320
you have to have a regulation of the

728
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,720
digital space of information

729
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,720
um and that is actually an issue of the

730
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,880
state if we don't have a regulated space

731
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,880
in terms of fake news in uh what you

732
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,720
call the social media or the digital

733
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:47,440
realm

734
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,200
you know you will not be able to

735
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,360
strengthen uh what we call traditional

736
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:52,159
media

737
00:26:52,159 --> 00:26:54,799
which have seen in most countries and a

738
00:26:54,799 --> 00:26:55,679
decrease

739
00:26:55,679 --> 00:26:57,520
you know whether it's the press germany

740
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,120
is a very different place we still have

741
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:00,559
regional newspapers which are very

742
00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:02,320
strong as opposed to many in the united

743
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,240
states which have been uh which had to

744
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,200
close and

745
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,159
and so on a decrease in uh in power and

746
00:27:08,159 --> 00:27:09,120
support

747
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:10,640
so you have to look at it country back

748
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,080
country but i really think that

749
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,000
regulation in the digital space

750
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,000
is relevant and of information in the

751
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,240
digital space will be very relevant

752
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,440
to preserving you know objective um sort

753
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,520
of information and coverage

754
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,799
and uh encountering fake news

755
00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:29,840
uh jakub um in slovakia um

756
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,679
and in central eastern europe generally

757
00:27:31,679 --> 00:27:33,039
and and please

758
00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:34,799
if you if you could give us some sense

759
00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:36,320
of uh

760
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:37,919
what is going on right now in hungary in

761
00:27:37,919 --> 00:27:40,080
this respect and to what extent

762
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,559
is the media trusted by the public uh

763
00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:44,480
the mainstream media uh the traditional

764
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:45,039
media

765
00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:46,840
uh trusted by the public here in

766
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,320
slovakia

767
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,200
i think that slovakia is a odd man out

768
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,399
in comparison to

769
00:27:52,399 --> 00:27:55,840
its neighbors to north and south

770
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,640
with public broadcaster relatively

771
00:27:58,640 --> 00:27:59,840
uncontroversial

772
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,960
and not making waves and relatively

773
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,159
trusted

774
00:28:04,159 --> 00:28:07,120
there is there are some problems around

775
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:08,720
public broadcaster

776
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,000
namely lack of resources and lack of

777
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,960
this packaging which makes the product

778
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,000
attractive

779
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,399
and as regards hungary and poland poland

780
00:28:18,399 --> 00:28:20,240
to answer quickly your question i think

781
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,159
that the biggest proponents

782
00:28:22,159 --> 00:28:25,440
of uh law and justice in poland and the

783
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:26,399
urban

784
00:28:26,399 --> 00:28:29,600
fides party in hungary have no illusions

785
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:30,320
that these

786
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,600
there is a capture of by political class

787
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:33,919
of

788
00:28:33,919 --> 00:28:37,039
public broadcasting and they hang on to

789
00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:37,440
it

790
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,960
as a sort of fruit of the power but

791
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,960
nobody has illusions that this is

792
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,640
something that is a standard

793
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,279
that they want to be kept once the power

794
00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:48,240
changes

795
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,640
and how to redesign it it's a very tough

796
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:51,840
question i think that

797
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,360
we need a sort of day one um zero moment

798
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,000
zero

799
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,559
when we go back to the drawing table and

800
00:28:58,559 --> 00:28:59,440
invent

801
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,320
bbc of poland or hungary once again

802
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:03,520
surely this would be

803
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,279
this would mean less of influence of

804
00:29:05,279 --> 00:29:07,200
politicians maybe some

805
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,240
academia represented in some supervisory

806
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:11,360
bodies

807
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,240
we need something like bbc uh in poland

808
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:15,520
or hungary even

809
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,799
knowing the flaws of bbc and let's be

810
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:20,240
clear that as long as victor orban's

811
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,520
prime minister of hungary that's never

812
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:22,720
going to happen

813
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,039
i mean isn't hungary an example of where

814
00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:26,000
the digital revolution

815
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,840
actually comes storming through for

816
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,520
democracy and that that is the only

817
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,000
place

818
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,080
that's true that civil society can go to

819
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,200
actually mount a challenge

820
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,080
yes yes this is a very strong dilemma

821
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:36,960
where if you

822
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,360
if you don't regulate you have all these

823
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,880
populist and crazy

824
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,200
people present which vie for the

825
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,039
attention of the population and they

826
00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:46,559
capture this population

827
00:29:46,559 --> 00:29:50,399
if you um if you regulate you you have

828
00:29:50,399 --> 00:29:54,240
tendencies on the part of some

829
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,360
dictators to be who can try to capture

830
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,559
the power and make

831
00:29:58,559 --> 00:30:02,399
themselves electable for another term

832
00:30:02,399 --> 00:30:04,720
this is a good segue into a question

833
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,159
that i have on my tablet from

834
00:30:06,159 --> 00:30:10,320
uh from one of the viewers uh from uhana

835
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,080
if i'm pronouncing this correctly

836
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,399
um and the question is and we'll start

837
00:30:14,399 --> 00:30:15,120
off with uh

838
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,799
sandra uh if i could can trust and

839
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:21,440
democratic dialogue be restored

840
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,000
if social media giants maintain their

841
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,600
current business model

842
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,080
which favors echo chambers sandra

843
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,559
well um you know the echo chambers are

844
00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:38,480
obviously a huge um a huge problem and

845
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,320
what we have seen over the past one and

846
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,240
a half years that what we normally have

847
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,640
as individuals we have our private space

848
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,640
we usually have what we consider our

849
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,399
work space and we have a public space

850
00:30:48,399 --> 00:30:50,240
has been restricted to a private space

851
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:50,960
both

852
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,520
physically and digitally that has

853
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,840
increased to polarization

854
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,279
and you know to distrust

855
00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:01,600
now you have to have more regulation

856
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,760
obviously but you also have to start

857
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,000
investing in mechanisms which

858
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,200
as i said before allow for citizens of

859
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,159
different views

860
00:31:10,159 --> 00:31:13,360
and backgrounds to interact and

861
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,480
this is hard work this includes actually

862
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,159
uh you know a very inclusive and

863
00:31:18,159 --> 00:31:20,399
participatory approach this also means

864
00:31:20,399 --> 00:31:21,440
that you have

865
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,679
to work across sectors you know one of

866
00:31:23,679 --> 00:31:25,600
the one of the groups actually at least

867
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:26,559
look

868
00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:29,120
we looked at is our adults who who are

869
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,320
in the workforce

870
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,360
we invest quite a bit of um of effort in

871
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,039
young people and their education which

872
00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:37,200
is very important and education is

873
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,679
sort of uh the the backbone of a society

874
00:31:39,679 --> 00:31:41,600
of the future of a society

875
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,880
but we rarely look at the large

876
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,320
the large group of people who are in the

877
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,240
workforce so

878
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,080
how do you reach these people it's

879
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,760
actually through their employers we have

880
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,159
to think of new mechanisms to reach out

881
00:31:54,159 --> 00:31:56,399
whether this is possible without

882
00:31:56,399 --> 00:31:58,559
dismantling the monopolies of the

883
00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:01,440
large um you know uh social media

884
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:02,159
platforms

885
00:32:02,159 --> 00:32:04,720
uh is is difficult to say i guess the

886
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,039
these platforms have a huge pull

887
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,120
we i know many politicians are looking

888
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:10,720
at regulation efforts and

889
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,519
and how we we can counter these echo

890
00:32:13,519 --> 00:32:14,000
chambers

891
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,519
that we have but all of us both civil

892
00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:18,880
society you know

893
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,159
government but also business and

894
00:32:22,159 --> 00:32:23,679
and all the sectors have a

895
00:32:23,679 --> 00:32:25,760
responsibility to engage

896
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,159
and this is where the multi-stakeholder

897
00:32:28,159 --> 00:32:30,320
and and cross-sectoral approach

898
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,399
really comes into play we have been

899
00:32:32,399 --> 00:32:33,360
largely playing

900
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,760
lip service to that we find it's

901
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:36,720
important

902
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,480
but what we do is usually done in

903
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,799
parallel even though many partnerships

904
00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:42,720
have increased so we think and we have

905
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,799
to think of new mechanisms and actually

906
00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:46,640
get to people where they are we cannot

907
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,159
expect people

908
00:32:48,159 --> 00:32:52,320
to come to us and to open up

909
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,799
we're very rapidly running out of time

910
00:32:54,799 --> 00:32:56,000
but this is this question

911
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,840
of social media of course facebook very

912
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,320
recently upheld a ban on donald trump

913
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:01,440
for two years and

914
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,440
uh and mark zuckerberg may well be

915
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,279
brilliant in technology and business but

916
00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:06,559
he probably doesn't

917
00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:08,320
uh have the same acumen in politics

918
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,760
because if donald trump gets into power

919
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:10,159
in

920
00:33:10,159 --> 00:33:11,760
four years time again facebook is

921
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,200
finished i would suggest

922
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,120
uh you know you can't take sides like

923
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,640
that without repercussions

924
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,679
francis fukiyama i mean is this you know

925
00:33:19,679 --> 00:33:21,200
my american history may be wrong so

926
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,600
correct me but i believe it was 1911

927
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,519
when standard oil was broken up in the

928
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:27,120
most famous anti-trust

929
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,279
uh piece of legislation in american

930
00:33:29,279 --> 00:33:31,679
history

931
00:33:31,679 --> 00:33:34,559
is there a a a danger for the tech

932
00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:35,679
companies that

933
00:33:35,679 --> 00:33:38,960
really they've they've annoyed everybody

934
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,120
in in politics in washington dc they're

935
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,640
very unpopular that they're going to get

936
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,200
taken down

937
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,200
well uh opinion on antitrust has

938
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,640
shifted 180 degrees over the last few

939
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,720
years and now you get both

940
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,640
conservative republicans and liberal

941
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,480
democrats that

942
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,559
are really distrustful of the power of

943
00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:02,640
the big platforms but

944
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,039
i don't think antitrust law is actually

945
00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:06,080
going to be a way

946
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,960
forward because it really only deals

947
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:09,280
with

948
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,599
economic and not with political harms

949
00:34:11,599 --> 00:34:13,359
it's very slow

950
00:34:13,359 --> 00:34:15,520
politically it's very fraud it took 10

951
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,679
years to prosecute

952
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:21,280
microsoft in the last big high-tech uh

953
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,040
antitrust case and i think that

954
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,960
there have to be other kinds of

955
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,560
solutions you know either through

956
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,399
privacy law

957
00:34:30,399 --> 00:34:33,280
i have my own proposal as a result of a

958
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,359
stanford working group on this

959
00:34:35,359 --> 00:34:38,239
uh subject to create a layer of

960
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,480
competitive what we call middleware

961
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,639
providers to which the platforms could

962
00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:44,480
outsource the

963
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,960
moderation of political content so that

964
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,320
they are not responsible

965
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,960
for it but i think that given the

966
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,599
polarization of american society

967
00:34:53,599 --> 00:34:56,000
the kinds of regulatory approaches that

968
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,160
have been undertaken by the eu

969
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,680
or by individual european countries are

970
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:02,079
simply

971
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:05,200
not uh viable we we can't agree on

972
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,520
how to regulate because you know

973
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,119
republicans and democrats have

974
00:35:09,119 --> 00:35:10,240
completely different

975
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:12,720
uh objections to what the platforms are

976
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:14,720
doing

977
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:17,200
um jakub a final word um i wish this

978
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,560
conversation could go on for another

979
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,160
half hour or another two hours

980
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,119
it'll certainly go on for years um what

981
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:24,480
do you think the politicians should do

982
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,240
what sort of legislation

983
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:27,920
is going to make a difference in terms

984
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,839
of restoring trust

985
00:35:29,839 --> 00:35:33,119
very briefly okay okay i think that the

986
00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:36,000
the answer will sound banal but we need

987
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,440
to educate people and

988
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,000
we need to make them love objective data

989
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,119
so that they are

990
00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:44,079
resistant to populist arguments i think

991
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:45,520
that kovit has provided

992
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,079
a huge lesson that people like bolsonaro

993
00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:48,960
in brazil

994
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,200
and at the end of the day they feel that

995
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,440
they they've lost touch with

996
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,240
society with reality and the society is

997
00:35:56,240 --> 00:35:57,200
able to see

998
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,119
through through their arguments so as

999
00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:01,119
long as we have proper data proper

1000
00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:02,079
indicators

1001
00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:04,720
people will be able to choose who is

1002
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:05,680
representing

1003
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,680
and who is electable government and who

1004
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:08,960
is not

1005
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,560
thank you very much and and thank you

1006
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,320
francis fukiyama for joining us at this

1007
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,000
early hour from california

1008
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,839
thank you very much sandra brecker from

1009
00:36:15,839 --> 00:36:17,359
uh berlin and of course

1010
00:36:17,359 --> 00:36:20,480
uh jakub here for uh for hosting uh for

1011
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:21,839
your organization hosting this

1012
00:36:21,839 --> 00:36:22,640
conference

1013
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,680
in bratislava our masters of ceremony uh

1014
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:26,000
my

1015
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,160
three and terry will come on the stage

1016
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,000
any second to say good night

1017
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,839
uh but i'd like to thank you once again

1018
00:36:31,839 --> 00:36:41,839
for a great discussion

1019
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,880
you