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[Music]

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[Music]

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hi everyone

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hello

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welcome

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so the last talk of the day for this

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theater

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uh how everyone enjoying hope everyone

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having a good time

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great

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that's great i like the enthusiasm

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so

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welcome to this talk uh we're going to

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talk about payments

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so you pay for that payment surveillance

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sorry payment systems surveillance and

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dissent

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so please welcome alex martius

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[Applause]

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hi everyone and thank you for sticking

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it out through to almost the end of hope

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and i am hoping to make you feel even

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more hopeless by the end of this

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so yay um i'm alex matthews i'm the

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national chair of restore the fourth we

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do um civil liberties work in the area

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of privacy and surveillance

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and

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i've grown more and more interested in

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the topic of

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payment systems and government power

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and

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how that can be used to affect people's

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ability to transact and dissociate and

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therefore their ability to dissent from

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whatever their government is pleased to

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think is the right opinions and the

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right practices

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the immediate spur

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for

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the for this kind of thinking for me

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came in 2019 and related to a fairground

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ride

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so

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my family and i were traveling in china

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and

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um

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and i had three kids who were very

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interested in riding on the fairground

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rides and they could not

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they could not because they could not

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use cash

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and unlike at u.s fairgrounds there was

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not a system of tokens where you could

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pay using a credit card or cash and then

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be given to code tokens and then use

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them on the right

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instead the only payment mechanism that

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was viable for my kids to get on these

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rides that they really wanted to get on

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was to use wepe

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we pay being a chinese system that

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grew out of the social messaging app

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wechat

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and you cannot get a wechat account

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without having a chinese national id

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with a matter that we thoroughly

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researched before going to china because

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we knew it would be kind of convenient

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to be able to use wepe but there was

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literally no well there was literally no

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legal way that we could get a wechat

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account so our kids were fresh out of

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luck

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and

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why is this convenient and and good for

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the chinese government well frankly

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there aren't that many tourists coming

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to

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china who have no access to anybody with

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a chinese national id so the problem

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from their perspective is relatively

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small

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and

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the benefits to the chinese government

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of having a payment system that is

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anchored to

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social messaging in an integrated

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collection of apps

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is enormous from their perspective for

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all of the reasons from their

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perspective

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that

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the

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u.s government or other governments use

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when they're considering what kind of

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financial surveillance to conduct

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the suppression of terrorism the

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suppression of money laundering the

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suppression of fraud the suppression of

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theft

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these are all the same sort of familiar

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arguments

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and

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so unfortunately

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my family were not terrorists

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um and

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the and a lot of the history of payment

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system surveillance traces back to

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efforts to suppress

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terrorism funding

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so here for for for many of you in the

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room you already know some of this but

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we're going to just briefly canter

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through

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some notable elements in the history of

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payments and surveillance

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so

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the patriot act in 2001

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establishes the new offense of material

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support for terrorism

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it requires organizations that are

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transmitting money to foreign countries

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to certify that

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those they're sending money to are free

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of links to terrorism

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um

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and

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the

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it strengthens know your customer

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requirements and anti-money laundering

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requirements or with the all with the

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intent of trying to

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prevent the financing of terrorist

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attacks

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at the time i was running a non-profit

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that

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sent substantial amounts of money abroad

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we wired money to schools in east africa

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for the sponsorship of girls

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for their secondary education

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so if we had been following the letter

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of what the patriot act required

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then what we would have needed to do in

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each of the schools that we wired money

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to

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was to sit down with every employee of

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the school every teacher

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every other staff member and to

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interview them to ascertain that the

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money that we were sending was not going

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to go

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to fund terrorist related activities

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and frankly we were never going to do

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that because i love sister salami she's

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an awesome person and definitely not a

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terrorist

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and the and

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just for completeness neither of the

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girls next to her are terrorists either

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um

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but you know we were not going to be

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targeted in the same way

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for doing that because the patriot acts

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um for financial surveillance

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requirements were not really targeted at

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girls scholarship programs

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so

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a well-known case during the 2000s was

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the holy land foundation case

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the holy land foundation at the time of

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9 11 was the largest muslim charity in

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the u.s

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and it funded um

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[Music]

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education and support programs in the

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palestinian territories

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at the time the gaza strip was ruled as

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it is today by hamas

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and

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the u.s government rapidly after

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9 11 initiated a prosecution for

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material support for terrorism

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on the holy land foundation

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there was a trial attended with a

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mistrial with one of the jurors

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declaring publicly that links between

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the alleged links between the holy lamb

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foundation and hamas had all the

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strength of a wet noodle

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but there was another trial

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and the fbi got a conviction that they

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celebrate on their website to this day

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um which included senior holy land

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foundation figures being sentenced to 65

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years in prison so yay fbi

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moving forward

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a few years we have

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yes

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moving beyond the sphere of islamic

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terrorism to other activities

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by the us government

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and after the publication of over 200

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000 us diplomatic cables

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wikileaks was blockaded for donations by

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paypal mastercard and visa roughly

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simultaneously

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the c a senior executive of paypal on an

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earnings call explained that this was

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because the state department had told

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them to do that

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the state department weighed in very

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very rapidly and said that they had

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never asked them to do any such thing

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and they maintained that position to

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this day

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mastercard lifted their blockade in

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2012. i'm not sure when or whether um

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paypal or visa lifted their blockade but

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here we see the dynamics starting which

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we're going to see in other non-profit

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groups during this talk

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of

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um wikileaks turning to cryptocurrency

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donations to sustain their operations

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and

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that is something that they still do

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today in major parts to fund the defense

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of julian assange

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during the 2010s we also saw the

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development of

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crowdfunding sites

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most famously gofundme

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but also it's right-wing alternative

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gifts and go

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and

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um

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there was and

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and

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the these these sites are

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relatively easily subject to

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disruption by nation states because they

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use the regular banking system

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um

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and give send go ran into troll with the

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canadian government because it was a

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major vehicle for donations to the

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canadian trucker protests against covid

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restrictions last year

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um and

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the canadian courts weighed in to block

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the movement of the money and there were

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also prosecutions of individual donors

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um

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you can see

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for those who have a little familiarity

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with the fourth amendment

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that

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a lot of these

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third party fundraising sites

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raise the

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issue of the third party doctrine

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this is the doctrine whereby

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the u.s government can approach

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entities with whom you share your data

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and can subpoena them or

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or get a warrant for access to their

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data

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and you yourself do not necessarily

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get informed and are not necessarily

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part of the process it's all like you're

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considered to have exposed your data to

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the third party vendor's use and then

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and then it's a matter between the third

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party vendor and the government the

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third party doctrine is a little bit

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weaker now than it was ten years ago but

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it's still a very live

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element facilitating the us government's

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collection of data

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we also have

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during the latter part of the 2010s the

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development of using blockchain to

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develop peer-to-peer transactions

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outside the regular banking system

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they're not necessarily anonymous by

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design

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but this whole

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ecosystem with the with the fancy name

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of d5 for decentralized finance evolving

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to

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try to provide people with alternatives

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that have

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lower transaction fees that are faster

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that enable people to move money around

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internationally with more convenience

298
00:11:40,079 --> 00:11:42,720
and that then generates regulatory

299
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,440
issues that the u.s government is really

300
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,440
only beginning to grapple with

301
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,680
um

302
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,440
we also have evolution of the swift

303
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,440
system the swift system has been around

304
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,360
since 1973

305
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:58,399
and

306
00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:01,519
originally it was set up by a consortium

307
00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:04,399
of six western banks um

308
00:12:04,399 --> 00:12:07,040
really just as a standardized messaging

309
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,720
system for the settlement of

310
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,399
international transactions

311
00:12:10,399 --> 00:12:11,440
so

312
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:12,720
um

313
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,279
so they have standardized codes for

314
00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:17,920
banks it makes it a lot easier to

315
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,839
transmit money a lot less burdensome

316
00:12:21,839 --> 00:12:24,480
and swift has become a dominant player

317
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,079
offering a variety of services and as it

318
00:12:28,079 --> 00:12:29,920
became dominant

319
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,440
it became more useful for governments to

320
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,360
use to accomplish their foreign policy

321
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:36,399
goals

322
00:12:36,399 --> 00:12:38,800
so in 2012 you see

323
00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,000
the

324
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,760
uh eu

325
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,839
um enforcing sanctions on iran

326
00:12:45,839 --> 00:12:46,880
by

327
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:47,839
um

328
00:12:47,839 --> 00:12:51,519
by cutting off iranian access to swift

329
00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:55,519
and this year you see the u.s enforcing

330
00:12:55,519 --> 00:12:58,079
sanctions on russia by cutting off

331
00:12:58,079 --> 00:12:59,680
access to swift

332
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:00,399
there's

333
00:13:00,399 --> 00:13:02,320
clearly a little bit of institutional

334
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,399
anxiety on the part of those

335
00:13:04,399 --> 00:13:06,399
administering the swift system

336
00:13:06,399 --> 00:13:08,560
because there are pains to point out on

337
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:09,920
their website that they consider

338
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,680
themselves to be

339
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:15,360
a neutral system and to be a utility

340
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,519
but they are also

341
00:13:17,519 --> 00:13:20,399
subject to these kinds of manipulation

342
00:13:20,399 --> 00:13:22,079
for foreign policy goals of nation

343
00:13:22,079 --> 00:13:24,479
states

344
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,440
so we can see

345
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:28,639
that

346
00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:32,160
in the context of digitization in the

347
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,279
context of vastly increased

348
00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:39,680
flows of international funds the

349
00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:42,639
government's greed for financial data is

350
00:13:42,639 --> 00:13:44,320
only growing

351
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:45,920
and the

352
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,120
and as part of that the neutrality of

353
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,959
payment systems is under threat

354
00:13:52,959 --> 00:13:54,639
governments want to

355
00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:55,680
control

356
00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:58,079
the flow of payments and they want to

357
00:13:58,079 --> 00:14:00,480
understand the nature of payments

358
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:01,279
and

359
00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:04,320
in my view largely mistakenly we are

360
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,320
retreating from

361
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,279
the idea that these payment systems

362
00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:11,920
could be used neutrally for

363
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,680
anything that is not sort of massively

364
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:16,560
criminal um

365
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:17,279
to

366
00:14:17,279 --> 00:14:20,480
um to a situation where payment systems

367
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,320
are more manipulable

368
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,760
as a response

369
00:14:25,839 --> 00:14:28,480
we can we can see the us government

370
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,240
becoming more aggressive in the area of

371
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,560
cryptocurrency

372
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,040
tracking and regulation

373
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,120
um

374
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,760
over the last few years i think it's

375
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,079
fair to say that the u.s government has

376
00:14:44,079 --> 00:14:46,560
become the most sophisticated actor in

377
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:47,519
the world

378
00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:51,040
in terms of tracking transactions

379
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,240
unraveling

380
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:53,360
mixers

381
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,040
um tracing

382
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,600
um cryptocurrency transactions obviously

383
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,560
more easily with bitcoin than with

384
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,880
more privacy oriented coins

385
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,000
um

386
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,839
and there's also been a lot more

387
00:15:05,839 --> 00:15:09,360
thinking about how to integrate

388
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,880
crypto currencies into the worldwide

389
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,040
financial system rather than having them

390
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:16,480
exist apart from them and there's

391
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,800
clearly a great deal of regulatory

392
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,959
discomfort with that separate existence

393
00:15:22,959 --> 00:15:24,959
to explain a little bit about mixers

394
00:15:24,959 --> 00:15:27,040
because not everyone here is going to be

395
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,920
terribly familiar with what they do but

396
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,839
if you take bitcoin as the default

397
00:15:31,839 --> 00:15:33,920
because it was the first cryptocurrency

398
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,519
then user a sends a bitcoin to user b

399
00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:40,399
that tracks transaction is recorded it's

400
00:15:40,399 --> 00:15:43,440
on the public blockchain it's visible

401
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:44,720
um

402
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,480
if you use a mixer service then that mix

403
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,160
mixes your cryptocurrency payment

404
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,639
payment with cryptocurrency from other

405
00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:53,759
users

406
00:15:53,759 --> 00:15:57,360
and sends that mix to one or more

407
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,560
addresses that are designated by user a

408
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,000
that mixing process breaks the on-chain

409
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:04,880
link

410
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,360
between wallet addresses and that

411
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,720
improves user privacy and autonomy

412
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,720
the mixer then gives back

413
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,079
to user a or onward to user b

414
00:16:16,079 --> 00:16:18,560
an equivalent value of the resulting mix

415
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:19,839
of coins

416
00:16:19,839 --> 00:16:22,079
so user a or user b they don't have to

417
00:16:22,079 --> 00:16:23,600
know the source

418
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,079
of their new assortment of coins

419
00:16:26,079 --> 00:16:28,720
just that it has the equivalent value of

420
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,399
what was put in

421
00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:31,680
subtracting

422
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,759
presumably some fee for the use of the

423
00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:35,759
mixing service

424
00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:38,240
so the us government has begun

425
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,199
prosecution of peer-to-peer

426
00:16:41,199 --> 00:16:43,360
cryptocurrency traders for

427
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,040
not fulfilling kyc requirements

428
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,040
not filing these suspicious activity

429
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:50,959
reports that you're supposed to file

430
00:16:50,959 --> 00:16:53,600
for transactions over 10 over value of

431
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,440
over ten thousand dollars

432
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,199
the first prosecution for that was in

433
00:16:57,199 --> 00:16:59,040
2019

434
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,519
and they have also

435
00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:02,839
um

436
00:17:02,839 --> 00:17:06,000
started to contract

437
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:06,799
with

438
00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:09,679
third-party vendors who specialize

439
00:17:09,679 --> 00:17:13,520
in cryptocurrency training uh tracing

440
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,559
of which a big trade player is chain

441
00:17:16,559 --> 00:17:18,160
analysis

442
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:19,280
um

443
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,880
and the kinds of things that chain

444
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,119
analysis do or this so

445
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,439
when you have coins from two or more

446
00:17:25,439 --> 00:17:27,199
addresses that are spent in a single

447
00:17:27,199 --> 00:17:28,480
transaction

448
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,320
then it their software reveals that

449
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,559
whoever created that multi-input

450
00:17:34,559 --> 00:17:35,760
transaction

451
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,760
must have control of both spender

452
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,480
addresses so that now allows chain

453
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:41,520
analysis

454
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,120
to identify

455
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:45,120
a single identity governing those

456
00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:47,840
transactions and to identify that to

457
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,120
their client

458
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,039
in other cases they can follow what's

459
00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:53,360
called appeal change so

460
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:56,240
bitcoins or other cryptocurrencies get

461
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,280
moved out of one address a fraction is

462
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,520
paid to a recipient then the remainder

463
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,320
is returned to a spender at a different

464
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,640
address a change address

465
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,679
and chain analysis is software

466
00:18:09,679 --> 00:18:11,120
enables them to

467
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,280
distinguish the chain out change

468
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,679
addresses and that allows investigators

469
00:18:15,679 --> 00:18:18,160
to follow a sum of money as it hops from

470
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,080
one address to the next

471
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:21,360
so

472
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:24,000
fbi is developing significant expertise

473
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,880
in this so it's the irs and so is ice um

474
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,760
and they seem to have been starting to

475
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,320
have substantial contracts with chain

476
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,960
analysis and a developing relationship

477
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,640
with coinbase

478
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,880
to track trip cryptocurrency

479
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,840
transactions which i presume

480
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,000
are related to them

481
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,960
attempting to suppress cryptocurrency

482
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,039
payments to coyotes

483
00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:54,880
smuggling people over the border

484
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,480
so the biden administration attempted to

485
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,360
introduce a rule last year that would

486
00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:02,799
not require reporting of all

487
00:19:02,799 --> 00:19:04,320
transactions over a value of ten

488
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,039
thousand dollars but over a value of six

489
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:08,799
hundred dollars which would be a lot

490
00:19:08,799 --> 00:19:10,720
more intrusive and we were

491
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:11,840
working

492
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:12,799
on

493
00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:14,640
congressional advocacy to oppose that

494
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,799
move

495
00:19:16,799 --> 00:19:18,640
in the end the senate finance committee

496
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,960
nixed it

497
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:21,919
and

498
00:19:21,919 --> 00:19:24,400
what followed was an executive order

499
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,480
with some really interesting phraseology

500
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,960
for how they're thinking about

501
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,160
um

502
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,760
about

503
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,919
cryptocurrency and payment surveillance

504
00:19:33,919 --> 00:19:35,200
more broadly so i'm just going to be a

505
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,880
little bit of that

506
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,760
they say the executive order says

507
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,080
digital assets may pose significant

508
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,799
illicit finance risks including money

509
00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:47,440
laundering cyber crime and ransomware

510
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,919
narcotics and human trafficking and

511
00:19:49,919 --> 00:19:52,720
terrorism and proliferation financing

512
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,520
assumedly nuclear proliferation

513
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,840
digital assets may also be used as a

514
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:58,640
tool

515
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,200
to circumvent united states and foreign

516
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,679
financial sanctions regimes

517
00:20:03,679 --> 00:20:05,440
and other tools and authorities and

518
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,159
we'll talk about sanctions in a moment

519
00:20:08,159 --> 00:20:10,480
growth in decentralized financial

520
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,120
ecosystems this is the d5 stuff

521
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:15,440
peer-to-peer payment activity and

522
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,840
obscured blockchain ledgers without

523
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,480
controls to mitigate illicit finance

524
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,559
could also present additional market and

525
00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:26,080
national security risks in the future

526
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,080
and they're right opinions differ on how

527
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,159
much of a problem that is but they are

528
00:20:30,159 --> 00:20:31,679
right

529
00:20:31,679 --> 00:20:34,880
they're now contemplating the urgent

530
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,280
adoption of a central bank digital

531
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,120
currency which is another way of

532
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,840
co-opting the cryptocurrency space

533
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,840
and bringing it into the mainstream

534
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,400
a lot of this comes i think from talking

535
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,000
with staffers

536
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,320
from the kind of impulse that i saw

537
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:53,760
commonly with people when i was at

538
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:55,520
public policy school

539
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,440
for public policy people

540
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:58,559
they

541
00:20:58,559 --> 00:21:00,960
detest the idea of biased and prejudiced

542
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,000
decision making and

543
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,320
the conception at least when i was at

544
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,919
policy school was that the way that you

545
00:21:07,919 --> 00:21:10,000
avoided bias in decision making was to

546
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,919
collect more data

547
00:21:11,919 --> 00:21:14,720
and that therefore implicitly more

548
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,440
collection of data by the government by

549
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,240
improving decision making is by default

550
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,440
a good

551
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,960
and it's very hard for public policy

552
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,000
people to wrap their minds often around

553
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,080
situations where the collection of less

554
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,840
data may be a good that's just not how

555
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,760
public public policy courses and

556
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,000
philosophy is structured

557
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,159
so we have data now flowing from

558
00:21:40,159 --> 00:21:43,039
cryptocurrency exchanges to fincen and

559
00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:45,919
from finzen fincen outward to ice and

560
00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:48,720
fbi and irs

561
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:49,919
and

562
00:21:49,919 --> 00:21:52,320
this i i want to emphasize this has

563
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,039
gotten a lot deeper and a lot more

564
00:21:55,039 --> 00:21:57,520
sophisticated in between say 2017 and

565
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:58,640
now

566
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,480
to the extent that even with the exp

567
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,400
impressive progress that there has been

568
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,760
on privacy coins like monero and zcash

569
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,320
in the context of this heightened

570
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,520
scrutiny relying only on the technology

571
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,440
of those privacy coins

572
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:14,880
feels unwise

573
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,600
especially for

574
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,720
implementations that the us government

575
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,720
may perceive as being against its

576
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,640
interests whether those implementations

577
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,559
are legal or illegal in a given country

578
00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:27,360
so

579
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:30,320
this raises an interesting question

580
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,159
for

581
00:22:32,159 --> 00:22:33,039
um

582
00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:35,840
of whether cryptocurrency

583
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,520
can in fact

584
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,600
blunt the impact

585
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,280
of sanctions

586
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,080
regimes and with that

587
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,960
how much can it blunt the

588
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,000
in the efforts of the u.s to advance its

589
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,360
national interests we're getting into

590
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,679
some very large questions here

591
00:22:53,679 --> 00:22:56,240
and you can see the anxiety

592
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,039
about that in the executive order so how

593
00:22:59,039 --> 00:23:03,360
far is that really true as we stand

594
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:05,039
well

595
00:23:05,039 --> 00:23:08,559
what i see realistically right now

596
00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:09,520
is

597
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:10,480
that

598
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,159
implementations

599
00:23:12,159 --> 00:23:16,400
outside the us that are citizen focused

600
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,840
are blunting the impact of sanctions on

601
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,280
individuals that's not exactly where the

602
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,120
anxiety lies

603
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:25,840
but

604
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,320
that it but that is nevertheless the

605
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,280
case

606
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:30,000
so

607
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,400
there are some useful examples of this

608
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,159
um

609
00:23:34,159 --> 00:23:37,520
in venezuela for people who have been

610
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,640
looking to flee venezuela in the context

611
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,080
of the currency controls that the

612
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,760
venezuelan government imposed

613
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,679
cryptocurrency has been a useful store

614
00:23:47,679 --> 00:23:50,400
of value enabling them to flee the

615
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,559
country and still take something with

616
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:54,240
them

617
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:55,200
in

618
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,600
afghanistan with the acute crisis that

619
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,320
is going on there

620
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,679
there are educational charities that are

621
00:24:03,679 --> 00:24:06,960
reported to be turning to cryptocurrency

622
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,679
so that they can continue to provide

623
00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:12,480
some measure of girls education

624
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,480
without using

625
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,000
anything that is visible to the taliban

626
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,360
but also

627
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:21,520
without having to raise funds in ways

628
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,760
that go through the mainstream banking

629
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,760
system which is operating under

630
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,440
sanctions

631
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:28,799
and also

632
00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:31,200
as things get more desperate there to

633
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,880
provide famine relief as well as

634
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,799
education

635
00:24:34,799 --> 00:24:36,559
i have seen reports

636
00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:38,159
that um

637
00:24:38,159 --> 00:24:39,840
iranian students are using

638
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,840
cryptocurrency to

639
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,640
be able to pay college tuition for

640
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,360
remote learning courses

641
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:49,039
which would otherwise come under

642
00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:51,279
sanctions

643
00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:54,960
a the feminist coalition in nigeria

644
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,279
got blocked from raising funds by the

645
00:24:57,279 --> 00:24:58,400
government

646
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,679
because it advocated too energetically

647
00:25:01,679 --> 00:25:05,120
against police brutality in nigeria

648
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:07,520
and they have been using cryptocurrency

649
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,360
to continue their work against police

650
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:15,120
brutality and against impunity from rape

651
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,840
and another interesting example i found

652
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:18,799
was

653
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:21,679
the belarus solidarity foundation which

654
00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:24,960
is an association of dissidents against

655
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,880
the belarusian dictator lukashenko

656
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,880
again blocked from raising funds by

657
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,080
their government

658
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,919
they've used cryptocurrency and

659
00:25:33,919 --> 00:25:36,400
continued to use cryptocurrency to fund

660
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,679
that dissent and also now to fund

661
00:25:39,679 --> 00:25:41,600
volunteers and medical supplies and

662
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:42,799
equipments

663
00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:44,960
and in the form of arms to resist the

664
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:45,919
russian

665
00:25:45,919 --> 00:25:49,039
invasion of ukraine

666
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:50,559
so

667
00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:52,640
let's think about the larger anxiety in

668
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,000
this executive order

669
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,039
why is it that we have not seen

670
00:25:59,039 --> 00:26:00,880
as a consequence of the russian invasion

671
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,000
of ukraine

672
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,480
a substantial turn by the russian

673
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:05,440
government

674
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,840
to using either cryptocurrency more

675
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,360
broadly or privacy coins in particular

676
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:15,279
to evade sanction regimes

677
00:26:15,679 --> 00:26:19,120
there are a few reasons why that might

678
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:21,360
be so

679
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:23,039
so

680
00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:24,799
one is

681
00:26:24,799 --> 00:26:26,559
probably that

682
00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:29,440
this whole ukrainian invasion was

683
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,799
envisioned as being a short-term over by

684
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:34,960
christmas kind of thing

685
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,000
it was indeed i think envisioned as an

686
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,600
easy security

687
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,240
operation and that the conquest of

688
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,000
ukraine would be brief

689
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:44,880
and

690
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,799
that logically means that they would not

691
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:49,120
necessarily have been thinking

692
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:50,720
about

693
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,200
long-term financial retooling of the

694
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,080
tools that they were using

695
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,039
there's obviously issues of expertise i

696
00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:01,919
would be surprised if

697
00:27:01,919 --> 00:27:04,320
a substantial portion of russian

698
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,960
leadership were familiar

699
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,039
with the use of privacy coins

700
00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:14,159
but there are also issues of scale

701
00:27:14,159 --> 00:27:17,200
wars are massively expensive and the

702
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,679
daily transaction volume on monero which

703
00:27:19,679 --> 00:27:21,760
is the largest of the privacy coins by

704
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,520
some way

705
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,000
is a tiny fraction of the expenses of a

706
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,120
war

707
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:28,159
so

708
00:27:28,159 --> 00:27:31,039
we would be able to see

709
00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:34,000
a russian caused expansion in the use of

710
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,720
privacy coins that just is not there

711
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,120
and that issue of

712
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:40,240
volume

713
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,520
suggests that the anxiety

714
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,440
in the executive order

715
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,399
that nation states would use privacy

716
00:27:48,399 --> 00:27:50,399
coins and cryptocurrency to blunt the

717
00:27:50,399 --> 00:27:52,080
impact of sanctions

718
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,720
that really is not happening yet

719
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,360
and is not going to happen until

720
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,399
adoption of privacy coins is a lot

721
00:28:00,399 --> 00:28:03,919
broader than it is today

722
00:28:03,919 --> 00:28:05,200
um

723
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,440
so

724
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,080
there you go there is good and bad

725
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:11,120
so

726
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:14,320
now come see the part of the talk where

727
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,000
i get to be a little bit of a

728
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,360
nostradamus

729
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:20,399
and to give a plausible scenario for

730
00:28:20,399 --> 00:28:21,760
near-term

731
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,559
the near-term future for payment system

732
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:26,720
surveillance and there are some things

733
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,679
that are reasonably foreseeable

734
00:28:29,679 --> 00:28:31,440
some of which are already in part

735
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,960
happening

736
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:33,760
so

737
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,559
in the context of privacy coins

738
00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:38,080
um

739
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,559
d some degree of d platforming from

740
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:43,440
exchanging exchanges has already

741
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,720
happened

742
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,440
and in some countries there will be

743
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,039
attempts to

744
00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:52,159
criminalize the use of privacy coin

745
00:28:52,159 --> 00:28:54,080
related software

746
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,440
um

747
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,520
we can expect to see more countries

748
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,520
experimenting like india has done and

749
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,760
like china has done and like sweden has

750
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:04,559
done

751
00:29:04,559 --> 00:29:08,320
with discouraging the use of cash

752
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,919
cash is too flexible and too anonymous

753
00:29:11,919 --> 00:29:13,840
for the default assumptions of

754
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,159
governments these days

755
00:29:16,159 --> 00:29:17,919
an enormous

756
00:29:17,919 --> 00:29:20,240
amount of the world's

757
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,679
payments transactions are still

758
00:29:21,679 --> 00:29:24,000
conducted in cash even in the us it's

759
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,039
still around 50 percent

760
00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:29,760
and we can expect to see that continue

761
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,360
to decrease

762
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,200
in an environment of government

763
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,000
discouragement of cash

764
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,080
one thing that

765
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,760
gives

766
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,559
privacy and surveillance activists hives

767
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:43,760
is the

768
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,960
prospect of increased mergers between

769
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,320
credit rating agencies and data brokers

770
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,760
and open source intelligence

771
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,720
a vastly increased volume of data going

772
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:57,600
into

773
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,679
credit rating decisions whether that

774
00:29:59,679 --> 00:30:02,960
data is of high quality or low quality

775
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,480
and

776
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,720
forming what you might call credit

777
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,600
broker entities

778
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:10,559
that

779
00:30:10,559 --> 00:30:13,200
pose a significant threat to people's

780
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,880
privacy in the payments context

781
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,200
on another axis

782
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,480
we can

783
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,159
see that facebook already spent

784
00:30:24,159 --> 00:30:26,799
a couple of years trying to create its

785
00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:29,760
own cryptocurrency lumen

786
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,039
um

787
00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:34,320
and was clearly prompted in that by the

788
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,279
success of the wechat we pay

789
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:40,559
at um access in china

790
00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:41,760
and we can

791
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,640
we can expect to see continued efforts

792
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,799
along those lines and

793
00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:49,520
in and in the west it may be that that

794
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:50,880
eventually those efforts will be

795
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,120
successful

796
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,640
so if those consolidations occur

797
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,880
then we can reasonably foresee

798
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,039
that governments will have an enormously

799
00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:03,360
strong incentive to coordinate with

800
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,080
credit brokers and wechat analogues

801
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,320
to do all the things that they already

802
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,600
do with other types of surveillance data

803
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,000
heat mapping of where the risky entities

804
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,080
are flagging those entities harassing

805
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,000
those entities prosecuting those

806
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,799
entities and some of those prosecutions

807
00:31:20,799 --> 00:31:23,519
will be completely legitimate

808
00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:25,679
some of the concerns relating to payment

809
00:31:25,679 --> 00:31:28,159
surveillance are completely legitimate

810
00:31:28,159 --> 00:31:30,960
but there's also going to be

811
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,320
a lot of fallout for individuals

812
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:35,519
privacy

813
00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:38,080
um that comes along with that

814
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,440
um

815
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:40,320
and

816
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,840
it is hard to see what institutional or

817
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,440
legal barriers

818
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,240
there may be within the u.s context

819
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,080
that would prevent the u.s government

820
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,519
from going down that particular path

821
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:54,799
so

822
00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:57,440
then we can then i can switch because it

823
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,840
is my talk and i get to do this kind of

824
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,679
thing from being nostradamus to being

825
00:32:01,679 --> 00:32:02,960
moses

826
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,120
and making not the commandments but some

827
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,200
suggestions of things that we can do

828
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,159
that

829
00:32:08,159 --> 00:32:08,960
may

830
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,679
help a little bit i'm not sure really

831
00:32:11,679 --> 00:32:13,919
what will help very much these are

832
00:32:13,919 --> 00:32:17,519
powerful forces that are involved here

833
00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:18,960
but

834
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,399
one element of this can be that

835
00:32:22,399 --> 00:32:24,799
the the smaller banks and the credit

836
00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:28,640
unions in the us are not geared up with

837
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,399
the swift system

838
00:32:30,399 --> 00:32:31,760
and so

839
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,600
for folks who are privacy conscious

840
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,600
there can be small banks and credit

841
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,360
unions that may be preferable to large

842
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,679
ones we use one called digital federal

843
00:32:39,679 --> 00:32:41,120
credit union

844
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,559
um

845
00:32:42,559 --> 00:32:46,559
the privacy coin adoption and volume

846
00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:47,919
problem

847
00:32:47,919 --> 00:32:50,240
solving that would solve

848
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,559
a large number of other problems it

849
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:54,320
would solve problems of volatility it

850
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,000
would solve problems of how you get ca

851
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,720
resources out of the privacy coin

852
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,039
context and into context where normal

853
00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:05,600
people transact

854
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,399
in ways that may be less transparent

855
00:33:08,399 --> 00:33:09,360
to

856
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,399
the to governments than the regular

857
00:33:12,399 --> 00:33:14,799
banking system is

858
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:16,399
there's been a great deal of research

859
00:33:16,399 --> 00:33:19,279
that there isn't really time to get into

860
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:21,600
in the cryptocurrency space

861
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,559
over

862
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:23,840
um

863
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,519
identity solutions and and what is

864
00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:30,240
sometimes called sovereign identity but

865
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:31,679
um

866
00:33:31,679 --> 00:33:35,039
having instead of a unified

867
00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:38,799
digital identity um

868
00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:41,440
separate identity claims in separate

869
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,240
contexts that by balkanizing your

870
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,440
digital identity enhance your privacy

871
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,519
vis-a-vis the government

872
00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:51,840
there have been long-running experiments

873
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,080
with autonomous currencies there's one

874
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,320
near me in massachusetts which is burke

875
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,320
shares which has been

876
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,399
um popular for a long time in a

877
00:34:00,399 --> 00:34:03,039
particular county in massachusetts and

878
00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:05,519
that's a local physical currency

879
00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:06,799
um

880
00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:08,560
for for

881
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:09,520
um

882
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,679
anarchist groups

883
00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:13,359
um there have been

884
00:34:13,359 --> 00:34:15,199
interesting experiments on a smaller

885
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,599
scale with you know black market work

886
00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:20,320
and barter economies and free cycling

887
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,520
and mutual aid that exists existed and

888
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,520
have always existed

889
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,560
outside of the regular banking system

890
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,800
and one thing that might be useful and

891
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,280
interesting for you for you folks as a

892
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:34,879
takeaway from this

893
00:34:34,879 --> 00:34:37,520
is to practice setting up an unhosted

894
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,760
privacy coin wallet while it's legal to

895
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:40,879
do so

896
00:34:40,879 --> 00:34:44,320
and to try transacting with it and see

897
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:45,280
see

898
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,000
where it takes you and what kind of

899
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,719
implications that generates in your mind

900
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:51,520
for

901
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,520
this kind of problem and how it may be

902
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:54,719
solved

903
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:55,679
so

904
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,320
those are the preliminary thoughts that

905
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,280
i have for you on the topic of payment

906
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:02,640
surveillance i think it's a really

907
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:03,920
fascinating

908
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,119
area and that it's going to

909
00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:10,320
become something that as activists we

910
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,800
have to think about more and devote more

911
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,320
time and thought to

912
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,400
but i'm going to open it up at this

913
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,200
point for q a and thank you for being

914
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,160
patient and for listening

915
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,839
[Applause]

916
00:35:27,839 --> 00:35:31,200
so if you want to come to the mic over

917
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,960
in that direction

918
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,640
then i'd welcome any thoughts that you

919
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,879
have

920
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,200
this is this is you're first you're up

921
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,320
thank you for an awesome super

922
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,240
informative talk um i had a question

923
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,599
about the slide you put up about uh

924
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:50,960
the contracts with uh

925
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,560
with with ice and with the government

926
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,640
right so coinbase and coinalysis and a

927
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,560
few other folks

928
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,400
yes is that dollars or is that thousands

929
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,000
of dollars because those numbers look

930
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,480
smaller than i would have expected

931
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,320
um and my understanding is that those

932
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,880
are thousands of dollars so i sure i

933
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,480
should have made that clear okay so

934
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:11,680
these are billions

935
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:12,800
okay yeah yeah that makes sense i'm

936
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,800
sorry

937
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,960
i can feel my math teacher cringing at

938
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,079
me for not labeling axes properly but

939
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:24,200
there you go thank you very much

940
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,160
yes please how you doing i met you

941
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,400
yesterday at your booth um so what

942
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,400
you're saying is uh if the governments

943
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,400
start uh banning the privacy coins of

944
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,480
course they're gonna force the exchanges

945
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,359
to remove the coins from their

946
00:36:41,359 --> 00:36:43,359
from their systems right the so what

947
00:36:43,359 --> 00:36:44,400
what happens what do you think is going

948
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,680
to happen is it's just going to go to

949
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,680
like decentralize exchanges at that

950
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,040
point or

951
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,880
i mean they could continue going on it's

952
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,560
just going to get harder for probably

953
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,560
regular people to understand how to

954
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,280
trade yeah i mean it's it's not a

955
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:58,960
process i think where governments are

956
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,000
expecting that there is going to be

957
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,680
zero percent usage of privacy coins in

958
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,520
the future but i think it's something

959
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,359
that they want to discourage and

960
00:37:09,359 --> 00:37:12,720
denormalize and drive out of

961
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:15,520
anything that is at all analogous to

962
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,119
something that is usable

963
00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:17,920
um

964
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,480
and so

965
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,720
it's an awkward discussion and i've been

966
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:25,200
in some of these discussions and

967
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,440
you have folks who

968
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,280
understand the potential of privacy

969
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:30,880
coins who are saying you know look you

970
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,480
don't understand it's not about trying

971
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,960
to regulate this particular kind of coin

972
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,720
or this particular kind of software

973
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:38,400
because it is designed to make you

974
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,000
irrelevant

975
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,040
um

976
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:41,839
and

977
00:37:41,839 --> 00:37:44,240
on and on the other side you have a lot

978
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:46,960
of interest from governments in the

979
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,200
potential that cryptocurrency poses as

980
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,119
long as it can be adequately taxed and

981
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:52,400
monitored

982
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:53,599
um

983
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:54,720
the

984
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:57,040
um

985
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:58,720
and

986
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:01,520
i think both elements of of of these

987
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,520
folks are right in the in a way but you

988
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,599
can have very innovative software that

989
00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:07,599
is very privacy friendly that still

990
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:09,680
nobody with will use

991
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,040
if

992
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,680
governments decide to just make it

993
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,599
illegal within their

994
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:17,280
spaces of government then that will

995
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,400
discourage people if it is perceived as

996
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,040
being something that is

997
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,280
that only criminals will use then it

998
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,680
will discourage people from using it

999
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,520
um and so

1000
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:30,560
there

1001
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,240
there are a lot of things that

1002
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:34,000
governments i think will be willing to

1003
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,560
do to maintain their grip

1004
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,960
over how people transact and to make

1005
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,440
that continually more transparent to

1006
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,079
them this is a very important thing to

1007
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:47,839
governments to do thank you

1008
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,119
i think most of us here believe in the

1009
00:38:51,119 --> 00:38:53,280
individual's right to privacy but the

1010
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,520
sad truth of a lot of

1011
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,240
anonymous currencies you know i don't

1012
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:00,599
want to name any is that they are used

1013
00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:03,119
disproportionately by bad actors

1014
00:39:03,119 --> 00:39:05,200
so i wonder you know in your various

1015
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,359
positions how how do you counter this

1016
00:39:07,359 --> 00:39:09,040
argument

1017
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,720
well

1018
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:12,640
so

1019
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,880
i think that

1020
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,960
speaking a little bit to the dynamic i

1021
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,200
was just describing

1022
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,359
um

1023
00:39:21,359 --> 00:39:22,240
the

1024
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:23,599
more that

1025
00:39:23,599 --> 00:39:24,480
um

1026
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,320
that governments try to repress and

1027
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,040
discipline a particular technology the

1028
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,160
more it

1029
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,359
will be likely to be used

1030
00:39:35,359 --> 00:39:37,760
only by people who have let's say a

1031
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,240
really strong financial incentive

1032
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:42,000
to keep their

1033
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,400
affairs out of government eyes

1034
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:45,599
um

1035
00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:47,920
i've given some

1036
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,320
very favorable examples of people who

1037
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,240
might have good reason to use privacy

1038
00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:57,440
coins

1039
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:58,560
um

1040
00:39:58,560 --> 00:39:59,680
but

1041
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,240
it is nonetheless true

1042
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:03,200
that

1043
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:04,000
there

1044
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:04,960
are

1045
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,480
um

1046
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,720
child sexual abuse materials that are

1047
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:11,599
circulated using these payments

1048
00:40:11,599 --> 00:40:14,000
there is money laundering that happens

1049
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,640
there is tax evasion that happens using

1050
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,000
these tools

1051
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,400
but at present

1052
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,480
i would have to say

1053
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,440
that at least as regards tax evasion and

1054
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,760
money laundering an enormous volume of

1055
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,839
that occurs through the regular banking

1056
00:40:29,839 --> 00:40:31,200
system

1057
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,160
and it occurs because you have corrupt

1058
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,359
individuals who are working within banks

1059
00:40:37,359 --> 00:40:39,920
who enable it to happen on behalf of

1060
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,760
wealthy clients

1061
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,280
and

1062
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,280
so

1063
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,319
i i understand

1064
00:40:48,319 --> 00:40:49,599
the need

1065
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:52,560
for there to be some notion of knowing

1066
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,000
your customer

1067
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,119
i understand the impulse behind it

1068
00:40:57,119 --> 00:40:59,200
but i also see

1069
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,319
a much more ardent desire by governments

1070
00:41:02,319 --> 00:41:05,680
to squash these particular technologies

1071
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,000
than to clean house in the established

1072
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,640
banking system they're easy targets now

1073
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:11,440
yes

1074
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,839
you know it's nascent and i think they

1075
00:41:13,839 --> 00:41:15,440
feel like they've done all they can in

1076
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,319
the fiat side of things

1077
00:41:18,319 --> 00:41:21,440
i'm sure they do feel that or at least

1078
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,520
they feel they have done all that that

1079
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,280
they are willing to do thank you

1080
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,319
thanks for the talk um i'll keep myself

1081
00:41:30,319 --> 00:41:32,240
to one question um the

1082
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:33,040
so

1083
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,160
we do have nowadays a lot of um people a

1084
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,640
lot of consumers who have moved away

1085
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,040
from cash um and

1086
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,960
the um even though

1087
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,280
cash has a lot of benefits for personal

1088
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:46,400
freedom they

1089
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,280
they

1090
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,880
adopt the corporate run system payment

1091
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,880
systems that are um

1092
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,160
and sometimes credit cards sometimes um

1093
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,160
yeah right so a lot of people use them

1094
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,280
um and um data brokers and so on have a

1095
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,359
lot of visibility to what happens in

1096
00:42:03,359 --> 00:42:04,640
them

1097
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,359
so i'd um

1098
00:42:07,359 --> 00:42:10,319
you'd expect that to result in costs to

1099
00:42:10,319 --> 00:42:12,160
consumers although consumers are usually

1100
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,400
not aware of the costs

1101
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,319
it seems to me that we are seeing those

1102
00:42:16,319 --> 00:42:19,280
costs um but it's being attributed to

1103
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,040
anything but um the recent adoption of

1104
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,119
these corporate surveillance payment

1105
00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:27,520
systems um so

1106
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:28,960
i mean everybody's suffering with

1107
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,280
inflation nobody connects that to the

1108
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,599
rise of corporate run

1109
00:42:33,599 --> 00:42:35,680
corporate surveillance payment systems

1110
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,680
um i wonder if you see any link there

1111
00:42:39,839 --> 00:42:41,839
so

1112
00:42:41,839 --> 00:42:45,839
i do not feel qualified to speak on the

1113
00:42:45,839 --> 00:42:49,680
link between inflation and these

1114
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:54,640
phenomena i am not a trained economist

1115
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:55,680
but

1116
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:56,560
i

1117
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,119
was i would say

1118
00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:01,280
that

1119
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,680
it is true that it is hard to see the

1120
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,240
damage from um

1121
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:10,880
from poor privacy practices and poor

1122
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,359
information security practices

1123
00:43:13,359 --> 00:43:15,839
and that it can be shocking for people

1124
00:43:15,839 --> 00:43:18,400
to come from other countries to the us

1125
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,319
and see just the regular process of

1126
00:43:20,319 --> 00:43:23,280
credit card transactions and go like

1127
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,079
this is crazy you're not entering a pin

1128
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:27,599
you're not there

1129
00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:30,800
nobody's checking your signature

1130
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,640
nobody is checking that the person who

1131
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,960
has the card is actually that person

1132
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,280
this is an apparatus that is designed

1133
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,680
absolutely for the convenience of the

1134
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,280
merchants and very little

1135
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,520
to do with protecting the consumer

1136
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,079
against credit card fraud

1137
00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:52,240
so people have

1138
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:54,400
great reasons to be skeptical of the

1139
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,000
current ways that we handle things

1140
00:44:03,839 --> 00:44:05,119
um

1141
00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:07,680
you lied out very nicely that

1142
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,599
cryptocurrencies don't play a role in

1143
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:12,319
sanctioned bustings for let's say russia

1144
00:44:12,319 --> 00:44:15,280
or for china or for iran as a state

1145
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,040
actor

1146
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,200
why is it then and the cryptocurrencies

1147
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:20,880
have used as you showed with great

1148
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,000
success for people subverting

1149
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,520
other states

1150
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,760
why is it then that the u.s has such a

1151
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,280
hard on let's say

1152
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,440
to actually regulate cryptocurrencies

1153
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,520
when they're actually being used very

1154
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:34,640
successful

1155
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:35,680
for

1156
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,200
let's say

1157
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,920
liberal uses instead of suppressive

1158
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,240
users

1159
00:44:44,319 --> 00:44:48,720
i think i think that there is a

1160
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:52,800
a real tension of world views

1161
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,119
that i can encounter in these spaces

1162
00:44:57,119 --> 00:44:58,560
and

1163
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,800
when you're talking to like staffers on

1164
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,960
the finance committee in congress or or

1165
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,440
or folks like this

1166
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:06,319
then

1167
00:45:06,319 --> 00:45:07,760
it is about

1168
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,680
there be there being data that is out

1169
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,160
there that they are can gather that they

1170
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,560
are not gathering it is about there

1171
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:15,839
being problems that they could

1172
00:45:15,839 --> 00:45:18,400
potentially solve if they if they allow

1173
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,319
the government to gather this

1174
00:45:20,319 --> 00:45:22,800
information that they are feeling like

1175
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,200
they cannot solve adequately without

1176
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,560
that um and so is a worry about their

1177
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,400
scope of authority

1178
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:31,520
um

1179
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,440
that i think is is so such a powerful

1180
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,160
and fundamental thing for folks who have

1181
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:39,760
this kind of training that they might

1182
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,839
not even articulate and i don't even if

1183
00:45:41,839 --> 00:45:44,079
i would have come to articulate it if i

1184
00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:46,079
hadn't wended my way over into the

1185
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:49,599
privacy and surveillance space

1186
00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:51,520
so

1187
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:52,319
um

1188
00:45:52,319 --> 00:45:55,680
i don't think that there is much that

1189
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,160
will stop

1190
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,960
governmental employees from feeling that

1191
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,520
there is a problem here in the

1192
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,960
development of the cryptocurrency space

1193
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,560
it's often the case

1194
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,640
honestly the government departments are

1195
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,599
victims of ransomware attacks that are

1196
00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:15,040
executed

1197
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,520
with the aid of cryptocurrency

1198
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,680
technology

1199
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,839
and that often is because government

1200
00:46:21,839 --> 00:46:24,160
departments are poorly protected and

1201
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,880
have visible information security

1202
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,200
practices um

1203
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:30,160
and

1204
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,800
and so they they are ripe

1205
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,240
for the plucking

1206
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:36,720
um but that doesn't mean they like the

1207
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:40,000
sensation of being plucked

1208
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,800
i think to your question is i'm sorry to

1209
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,280
interrupt but in the u.s i think the

1210
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:46,720
government have a lot of pressure from

1211
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:48,079
the banks

1212
00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:48,880
which

1213
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,880
is controlled by federal reserve to

1214
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,880
crack down on this stuff because

1215
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,560
in the long run cryptocurrencies are a

1216
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,880
threat to the us dollar that's why i

1217
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:57,680
think

1218
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,079
personally i think there's pressure not

1219
00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:02,160
too much

1220
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,079
yeah on your moses slide you mentioned

1221
00:47:04,079 --> 00:47:05,839
sovereign identity

1222
00:47:05,839 --> 00:47:08,400
are there any concrete examples of that

1223
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,480
uh well there is um you can look up um

1224
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,640
the one that i looked into most closely

1225
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,560
are some folks called the sovereign

1226
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,760
foundation

1227
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,559
s-o-v-r-i-n

1228
00:47:20,559 --> 00:47:21,440
and

1229
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:22,640
they they've been doing a lot of

1230
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,520
thinking about the

1231
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,839
how you deal with what are characterized

1232
00:47:27,839 --> 00:47:30,000
as the problem of blockchain and

1233
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,480
identity persistence

1234
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,640
because

1235
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,119
in a sense

1236
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:39,520
we we all benefit from a certain

1237
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,200
plasticity in our identities

1238
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,319
being able to shift our self-conceptions

1239
00:47:46,319 --> 00:47:47,599
over time

1240
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:50,000
being able to shift

1241
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,880
ways that we name ourselves and describe

1242
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,880
ourselves to the world

1243
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:55,680
and

1244
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,079
not having a fully accurate digital

1245
00:47:58,079 --> 00:48:00,160
record of the decisions that we have

1246
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,480
made

1247
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:05,440
the one of the

1248
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,800
risks in the blockchain space is because

1249
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,680
of the indelible nature of transactions

1250
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,640
on the blockchain if there are solutions

1251
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,079
adopted

1252
00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:18,079
unwisely

1253
00:48:18,079 --> 00:48:21,359
that are blockchain solutions that

1254
00:48:21,359 --> 00:48:22,640
um

1255
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,160
that

1256
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,200
fix a particular digital identity at a

1257
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,079
particular point in time for a person

1258
00:48:30,079 --> 00:48:32,400
then that person will be accountable to

1259
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,640
that identity for as long as that

1260
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:35,760
blockchain

1261
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:36,720
is

1262
00:48:36,720 --> 00:48:37,920
accessible

1263
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,520
i've seen some absolutely cracked

1264
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,040
suggestions

1265
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,839
of applying blockchain solutions in the

1266
00:48:43,839 --> 00:48:46,000
criminal justice space

1267
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,720
in the us and i'm like for christ's sake

1268
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:50,880
don't touch the one with the other they

1269
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,880
should stay very very far away from one

1270
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,319
another

1271
00:48:54,319 --> 00:48:55,520
um

1272
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:56,960
so

1273
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,040
my hope is that

1274
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,280
if there are

1275
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,480
methods evolved for as i put it

1276
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,880
balkanizing your digital identity and

1277
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,280
having it break up into particular

1278
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,920
claims in particular contexts

1279
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:13,760
then it will decrease

1280
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,880
the risk to people's

1281
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,520
self-characterization

1282
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,520
of the existence of blockchain

1283
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,680
technology

1284
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,280
and i'm sorry if that got a little

1285
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,920
abstruse and hypothetical but that's

1286
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,400
been on my mind

1287
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:33,680
okay

1288
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:35,320
looks like we're done

1289
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:41,760
[Applause]

1290
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,400
hello hi guys so just to let you know uh

1291
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,880
closing ceremonies will happen on 416

1292
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:04,720
but also there will be broadcasts here

1293
00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:06,480
as far as i know correct

1294
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:07,280
no

1295
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,280
okay

1296
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:14,240
yeah

1297
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:18,319
okay so yeah 206 i think 206 or 416

1298
00:50:18,319 --> 00:50:20,240
those are the places to go to watch the

1299
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:22,000
closing ceremonies

1300
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,160
thank you

1301
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,960
you